Why are we not allowed to cut hair when it's ok to cut nails, since both are created by God?

Luckysingh · #**145** (**permalink**) 17-Mar-2012, 08:25 AM

Good post showing the 2 extremes that are around with different beliefs for their hair.
Interestingly like the sadhu's that keep hair unwashed, unoiled we also have another group of believers that do this.- The afro carribean Rastafarians-
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/32165-why-we-not-allowed-cut-hair.html
This rastafarian religion requires that they keep matted hair in the same way as sadhus. The hair goes from shiny to matt if it is not washed or treated for a long time.

Interestingly, I just realised that the Rastafarian movement also respects Lord Shiva since Shiva was famous for making holy the cannabis plant. The sadhus and rastafarians both smoke cannabis as a religious ritual and the rastafarians also get their name from the indian word 'rasta'- the path and 'farian' to walk!!!!

drpranavsingh · #**146** (**permalink**) 17-Mar-2012, 12:18 PM

Very nice reply by Giani Jarnail singh ji. I would like to add that I haven't come across anyone who cuts hair and thinks they are superior to amritdhari sikh. Anyone who respects The 10th masters edict is a jewel. There are many gursikhs who belong in that category and are involved in community service and are an example to the society. There are many others whose claim to fame is writing ludicrous hair theories nd bashing those who cut hair in online forums. Like Giani ji mentioned, hair is a manifestation of a higher spiritual state that comes after merging with almighty when appearence doesn't matter any more to mortal beings. It is not the starting point. You cannot put cart before the horse.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165

And Kabir ji's tuk is not an excuse by the proponents of cutting hair. Its a simple timeless truth that applies to present day Sikhs as well as it applied to the pakhandi sadhs.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165

It is up to the Sikhs if they want to preserve the sanctity of gatra and not let it become a synonym for janeu.

Archived_member14 · #**147** (**permalink**) 18-Mar-2012, 12:39 PM

drpranavsingh ji,

This is going to ruffle some feathers, but hopefully it will be useful for some in the long run.

Quote:

Very nice reply by Giani Jarnail singh ji.

My impression is different. I read the message as an attempt to highlight two extreme practices, making a statement about the intentions of those who cut their hair which they do not have, and trying to make a case for keeping hair.

Quote:

I would like to add that I haven't come across anyone who cuts hair and thinks they are superior to amritdhari sikh.

And the truth is:
A Sikh who cuts hair does so motivated by attachment and by conceit. A Sikh who maintains hair thinking that it serves some spiritual purpose is motivated by attachment, by conceit and also wrong understanding.

Quote:

Anyone who respects The 10th masters edict is a jewel. There are many gursikhs who belong in that category and are involved in community service and are an example to the society.

And there are more people involved in the kind of activities who do not believe in any religion at all.

I know that you are highlighting Sewa here. However, it should be noted that in any particular situation while involved in some activity, there are many different motivations involved and mostly negative ones.

One thought of kindness is quickly followed by desire to “do something” and when done, the conceit “I” who does it. Following this, idealistic thoughts are entertained which is expression of more ignorance, attachment and conceit. More importantly however, it usually takes much involvement in “worldly values” to set up an organization with the aim to actualize one’s ideals. And this shows inability to distinguish worldliness from what is the real goal of religion, namely the liberation from the cycle of existence.

Quote:

There are many others whose claim to fame is writing ludicrous hair theories nd bashing those who cut hair in online forums. Like Giani ji mentioned, hair is a manifestation of a higher spiritual state that comes after merging with almighty when appearence doesn't matter any more to mortal beings. It is not the starting point. You cannot put cart before the horse.

I know that you do not intend this, but to me what you say is misleading. Some people will ignore your latter remark while latching on to the other idea, namely that “hair is a manifestation of a higher spiritual state that comes after merging with almighty when appearence doesn't matter any more to mortal beings”.

How does unconcern about appearance lead to keeping the hair long? Why would someone whose hair was short, after he has come to realize the Truth suddenly stop cutting his hair? If he still bathes, dresses up, makes an effort to eat, speak and move around, why would he suddenly think not to cut his hair? Beside between short or no hair vs. long hair, in terms of hygiene and general convenience, which is better?
Moreover, given the image amongst ignorant people regarding a saint being so much to do with appearance, should one suddenly keep long hair and thereby risk sending out the wrong message?

Quote:

And Kabir ji's tuk is not an excuse by the proponents of cutting hair. Its a simple timeless truth that applies to present day Sikhs as well as it applied to the pakhandi sadhs.

It is up to the Sikhs if they want to preserve the sanctity of gatra and not let it become a synonym for janeu.

I'm not sure what you are implying, but are you suggesting that a gatra and kirpan have some practical purpose in today's world?

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**148** (**permalink**) 18-Mar-2012, 16:50 PM

Confused ji wrote:
My impression is different. I read the message as an attempt to highlight two extreme practices, making a statement about the intentions of those who cut their hair which they do not have, and trying to make a case for keeping hair.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165

Quote:

I would like to add that I haven't come across anyone who cuts hair and thinks they are superior to amritdhari sikh.

And the truth is:
A Sikh who cuts hair does so motivated by attachment and by conceit. A Sikh who maintains hair thinking that it serves some spiritual purpose is motivated by attachment, by conceit and also wrong understanding.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165

IS That the Real "TRUTH" or simply a Made up statement ?? ( as I am accused of making statements Jios ??) How does one JUDGE a "truth" from a "made up statement"...intentions which they DO NOT HAVE ?? How does one KNOW whats in every ones hearts ??..is there a Truth Meter ...and a "made up statement false intentions meter ??

The ONE and ONLY unalterable TRUTH is GURBANI..all others simply state their own OPINIONS....you, me. every poster here...no one has the monopoly on "truth/facts".
I ma 60+ and have been dealing with Sikhs, of all shades sizes, leabnings and all for past decades..locally face to face, internationally abroad face to face and via the Internet ...and thats why my Gmail accounts ( are all FULL to capacity)..and i have first hand accounts of sikhs cutting hair, facing all sorts of problems, etc etc and sikhs who keep full banna ..instant amrtidharees who think they have the world at their feet the moment they step out of Amrit sanskaar Ceremony..etc etc...so i do have a little first hand knowledge of "INTENTIONS"....but i still cannot judge anybody because thats not my job. I have many sikhs among my closest associates who dont keep hair and claim sikhi is INSIDE...and that they are MUCH BETTER than some Full banna amritdharees who cna be seen in discos.bars at weekends..and I agree..it could be..but that could also be that the Full banna guy is much more easily RECOGNISABLE even from across the road..than a cut hair shaved 'sikh" who has sikhi inside and also a jug of beer in his belly..and a lady of the night on his shoulder...no one..not even me..can see INSIDE either...whether its really "SIKHEE" inside or just SICKEE". we come to SPN to LEARN...UN-LEARN...RE-LEARN...24/7..no one is perfect...long har, short hair...balding...lasered..coloured..plucked...what ever.. SHUBH Amallan bajoh DOVEH ROOVEE...

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**149** (**permalink**) 18-Mar-2012, 17:03 PM

Kirpan ( the gatra is just an instrument to enable the easy wearing of the Kirpaan - just as Dastaar is for the sole purpose of keeping the Kesh Neat and tidy and clean)..is not only PRACTICAL..it has its rightful place among the 5 Kakaars essential for a Amritdharee Khalsa SIKH. To even suggest otherwise is taking too much into ones own hands....This is a PANTH MATTER..not for individuals to decide. No one is forced to wear one...

2. Janeau...is CLASS SPECIFIC...a Brahmin cannot wear a Janeau meant for a SHUDRA..and Vice versa...each varan has its own specific janeau. ( Read up on Hindu sites)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165
KIRPAN is FOR ALL AMRITDHAREES. The Lowest of the Lowest mazhbee/night soil carrier is authorised to wear a Kirpan the moment he takes Amrit and his Kirpan is the exact SAME as one worn by a son of the Patiala Royal family who chhaks Amrit at the same amrit sanskaar ceremony as the mazhbee. MY Kirpan is the same as the one any other Khalsa wears in any part of the world..
Thus people who love to compare Kirpan to janeau are actually comparing moongee daal to Mangoes......///////?????????/////////????????

kaurhug

Archived_member14 · #**150** (**permalink**) 19-Mar-2012, 13:33 PM

Gyani ji,

I consider the opportunity to hear and discuss these things rare. I therefore would like to be as direct as possible.

Quote:

Confused ji wrote:
My impression is different. I read the message as an attempt to highlight two extreme practices, making a statement about the intentions of those who cut their hair which they do not have, and trying to make a case for keeping hair.

Quote:

Quote: I would like to add that I haven't come across anyone who cuts hair and thinks they are superior to amritdhari sikh.

And the truth is:
A Sikh who cuts hair does so motivated by attachment and by conceit. A Sikh who maintains hair thinking that it serves some spiritual purpose is motivated by attachment, by conceit and also wrong understanding.

IS That the Real "TRUTH" or simply a Made up statement ?? ( as I am accused of making statements Jios ??) How does one JUDGE a "truth" from a "made up statement"

It is a general statement not pointing to particular incidents, but universal truths.

A Sikh who decides to cut his long hair will not have any spiritual reasons for doing so (if there are some unusual exceptions, we should not consider it). It is clear then that he does it with attachment and if connected with some image, there must also be conceit.

A Sikh who maintains hair due to spiritual reasons has wrong understanding, since hair as you have said also, has nothing to do with the ability to develop goodness or wisdom. When there is wrong understanding, there must also be attachment associated with it. But also the very idea of long hair invariable becomes the object of sense attachment especially when there is the kind of wrong understanding. And in thinking that “I have long (or short) hair”, this is clearly an expression of conceit.

Do you disagree with this? If so, what is the reason?

Quote:

...intentions which they DO NOT HAVE ?? How does one KNOW whats in every ones hearts ??..is there a Truth Meter ...and a "made up statement false intentions meter ??

You had written in your original message:

“Just because a CUT hair person thinks hes BETTER simply due to his short hair”

This I took as projecting a situation not likely to ever happen. If there are rare cases that a Sikh decides to cut his hair thinking that he will be a “better” person in doing so, it must be very rare. But certainly this can’t be taken to represent all those other people who do so simply out of attachment and conceit, can it? On the other hand, Sikhs who keep hair as a religious symbol and who convince themselves by making the association with particular moral qualities, this is very common is it not? Even if they do not in their minds, form an idea regarding why hair must be kept, do they not however feel that in cutting their hair they would be doing wrong?

Do my statements appear to be made up, if so, in what way?

Quote:

The ONE and ONLY unalterable TRUTH is GURBANI..all others simply state their own OPINIONS....you, me. every poster here...no one has the monopoly on "truth/facts".

And according to your criterion, what you state above is just opinion. Doesn't sound right, does it?
One of us may be right and the other wrong or both are wrong depending on the topic of discussion. Indeed we may both be wrong about everything; however this would be due to conditions and can’t be helped. But to presume that what we say is only opinion, makes pointless any discussion of this sort, I’d think.

Would it not be that you have some level of understanding with regard to the truth that there is some validity in your stating that the Gurbani contains the Truth? Why then suggest that we come in thinking that what we say is only opinion? Why not discuss what is said in order to determine whether or not it is in line with the Truth?

Quote:

I ma 60+ and have been dealing with Sikhs, of all shades sizes, leabnings and all for past decades..locally face to face, internationally abroad face to face and via the Internet ...and thats why my Gmail accounts ( are all FULL to capacity)..and i have first hand accounts of sikhs cutting hair, facing all sorts of problems, etc etc and sikhs who keep full banna ..instant amrtidharees who think they have the world at their feet the moment they step out of Amrit sanskaar Ceremony..etc etc...so i do have a little first hand knowledge of "INTENTIONS"....

What you describe appears as a case simply of attachment and conceit and is what I had pointed out. But in your original post you had said:

“Just because a CUT hair person thinks hes BETTER simply due to his short hair”

As I said, it appears very unusual this particular line of thought. It may be that this had in fact nothing to do with spiritual aims, but why then compare this with the person who keeps his hair whose reasons include spiritual ones?

Quote:

but i still cannot judge anybody because thats not my job. I have many sikhs among my closest associates who dont keep hair and claim sikhi is INSIDE...and that they are MUCH BETTER than some Full banna amritdharees who cna be seen in discos.bars at weekends..and I agree..it could be..

It is good to hear that you keep friendship with Sikhs regardless of whether they keep or cut their hair.

Quote:

but that could also be that the Full banna guy is much more easily RECOGNISABLE even from across the road..than a cut hair shaved 'sikh" who has sikhi inside and also a jug of beer in his belly..and a lady of the night on his shoulder...no one..not even me..can see INSIDE either...whether its really "SIKHEE" inside or just SICKEE". we come to SPN to LEARN...UN-LEARN...RE-LEARN...24/7..no one is perfect...long har, short hair...balding...lasered..coloured..plucked...what ever.. SHUBH Amallan bajoh DOVEH ROOVEE...

It is to be expected that everyone, both young and old, is full of attachment. Going to discos and bars is what young people like to do and if not this, they'd be attached to something else. Not going to discos and drinking does not therefore prove that there is no attachment; indeed there may be attachment to *not doing* these things. So why take the concept of amritdhari so seriously? There appears to be so much unnecessary suppression and guilt involved in the whole thing.

If attachment to sense objects is wrong, point out to the nature of attachment. In highlighting certain aspects and the idea that in being able to avoid these one is on the right track, this easily becomes yet another object of attachment, which means that in the end it serves no purpose at all. Besides which is worse, a person who drinks but knows that it is not good, or someone who does not drink, but not aware of his attachments?

Archived_member14 · #**151** (**permalink**) 19-Mar-2012, 13:42 PM

Gyani ji,

Quote:

Kirpan ( the gatra is just an instrument to enable the easy wearing of the Kirpaan - just as Dastaar is for the sole purpose of keeping the Kesh Neat and tidy and clean)..is not only PRACTICAL..

But I was questioning the practicality of kirpan, the gatra comes later.

Quote:

it has its rightful place among the 5 Kakaars essential for a Amritdharee Khalsa SIKH. To even suggest otherwise is taking too much into ones own hands....This is a PANTH MATTER..not for individuals to decide. No one is forced to wear one...

This is a discussion amongst individuals who are interested to find out what is right and what is wrong and no one has to think to change the established rules. As you say, one can decide to follow or not, therefore we discuss the understanding behind the decision either way.

Quote:

Janeau...is CLASS SPECIFIC...a Brahmin cannot wear a Janeau meant for a SHUDRA..and Vice versa...each varan has its own specific janeau. ( Read up on Hindu sites)
KIRPAN is FOR ALL AMRITDHAREES. The Lowest of the Lowest mazhbee/night soil carrier is authorised to wear a Kirpan the moment he takes Amrit and his Kirpan is the exact SAME as one worn by a son of the Patiala Royal family who chhaks Amrit at the same amrit sanskaar ceremony as the mazhbee. MY Kirpan is the same as the one any other Khalsa wears in any part of the world..

Thanks for your explanation. What you are saying is that the reason for janeau is encouraging of discrimination between people, whereas that of kirpan is not. However the topic of discussion here is about having to have any symbols at all. I say that whatever the reasoning behind it, symbols are symbols and are potential object of attachment, leading away from the possibility of understanding the Truth.

Quote:

Thus people who love to compare Kirpan to janeau are actually comparing moongee daal to Mangoes......///////?????????/////////????????

The similarity is in that both being symbols, are equally potential object of attachment, ignorance and wrong understanding.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #**152** (**permalink**) 19-Mar-2012, 17:53 PM

Confused Ji..
i am too much 'attached" to gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...so i cant see what you are attached to..or confused about....apologies..i have to step out of this "confusion" as i dont belong.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32165
Please carry on your line of thought....until maybe there is no more attachment to confusion..

In Gurbani the GURU encourages "attachment"....to HIMSELF..His DHARRA (group)...so I guess i have taken that instruction to heart...sorry.japposatnamwaheguru:

Archived_member14 · #**153** (**permalink**) 19-Mar-2012, 20:38 PM

Gyani ji,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

Confused Ji..
i am too much 'attached" to gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...so i cant see what you are attached to..or confused about....apologies..i have to step out of this "confusion" as i dont belong.
Please carry on your line of thought....until maybe there is no more attachment to confusion..

In Gurbani the GURU encourages "attachment"....to HIMSELF..His DHARRA (group)...so I guess i have taken that instruction to heart...sorry.japposatnamwaheguru:

One day ten years ago, my wife commented to me that Sikhism is aimed at “understanding”. Up until then, my image regarding Sikh was that it is a religion requiring faith and beliefs not questioned. Her comment therefore aroused curiosity and interest and I was motivated to look for some Sikh discussion list on the web to find out more. On and off I visited a few websites and there was one which consisted of articles written by the author of the website I was somewhat impressed by. But I didn't like the style of expression and preferred more to discuss and later came upon this website.

But here as in other places, my impression has been that although there is much talk regarding the virtue of “wisdom”, when it comes down to it, the general attitude does not reflect this. I see a lot of criticism about the wrong practice of other religion and sects which of course is what happens in discussion lists of other religions as well, including Buddhism. And as it is the case with most Buddhists, Sikhs express attachment to rules and rituals quite a lot. Also there are many Sikhs who often sound like the Hare Rama Hare Krishna people when expressing their love for God. But maybe all this is just due to the fact that very few people really understand. So it may be that what you say about the Guru encouraging “attachment” is perhaps not true…

Anyway, I agree with you that we should drop this particular discussion.