God = the universe?

Charan · #1 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2010, 04:55 AM

According to Sikhism, is it ok to interpret God as the universe itself?
If yes, then why do we as Sikhs talk about the creation of the universe?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/31883-god-the-universe.html

All answers appreciated.

Charan 8)
*

Seeker9 · #2 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2010, 05:13 AM

Dear Charan Ji
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31883

It's late and I'm tired and this will probably be a poor analogy but I will give it a shot anyway!

The dancer can have a number of dances....

When HE starts dancing, is it possible to separate the Dancer from the dance?

I will develop this further tomorrow!

Charan · #3 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2010, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker9

Dear Charan Ji

It's late and I'm tired and this will probably be a poor analogy but I will give it a shot anyway!

The dancer can have a number of dances....

When HE starts dancing, is it possible to separate the Dancer from the dance?

I will develop this further tomorrow!

Thanks for answering.

Yes, i understand, God resides in all his creations. But then why do we say God was never created? When there was nothing, was that nothing God as well? Then that nothing becomes something if its God, but if nothing is nothing, then God must have been created at some point. Of course, not by anyone else but by himself. *Not stating a point, just asking.

Sorry if my questions are stupid, I am just a tiny bit confused.

Bahadar S · #4 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2010, 06:27 AM

Dear Charan Ji

God has always existed he created himself to his own liking, and assumed his name. For countless ages there was pure darkness and the Lord sat in deep meditation upon Naam,and when he wanted to he projected himself and created the Universes and created souls from himself thats how we came to be

,and the entire point of human life is to become one with that Lord again so we will never be seperated. Its difficult to describe but the Universe is in God and God is the Universe.Let me know if i made mistake

Charan · #5 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2010, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahadar S

Dear Charan Ji

God has always existed he created himself to his own liking, and assumed his name. For countless ages there was pure darkness and the Lord sat in deep meditation upon Naam,and when he wanted to he projected himself and created the Universes and created souls from himself thats how we came to be

,and the entire point of human life is to become one with that Lord again so we will never be seperated. Its difficult to describe but the Universe is in God and God is the Universe.Let me know if i made mistake

Thanks for answering Bahadar ji.

I think I understand what you are saying, but this is what confuses me:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahadar S

God has always existed he created himself ...

How can he be eternal and at the same time be created?

And also, you say

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahadar S

Lord sat in deep meditation upon Naam

what do you mean by this?

BhagatSingh · #6 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2010, 10:40 AM

Charan ji,
Bahadur ji has given you what is enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Page 250, Line 9

Quote:

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਓਅੰ ਸਾਧ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰੰ ॥
ओअं साध सतिगुर नमसकारं ॥
O▫aŉ sāḏẖ saṯgur namaskāraŉ.
ONG: I humbly bow in reverence to the One Universal Creator, to the Holy True Guru.
ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੰ ॥
आदि मधि अंति निरंकारं ॥
Āḏ maḏẖ anṯ niraŉkāraŉ.
In the beginning, in the middle, and in the end, He is the Formless Lord.
ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਖ ਆਸਨ ॥
आपहि सुंन आपहि सुख आसन ॥
Āpėh sunn āpėh sukẖ āsan.
He Himself is in the absolute state of primal meditation; He Himself is in the seat of peace.
ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਨਤ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਾਸਨ ॥
आपहि सुनत आप ही जासन ॥
Āpėh sunaṯ āp hī jāsan.
He Himself listens to His Own Praises.
ਆਪਨ ਆਪੁ ਆਪਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥
आपन आपु आपहि उपाइओ ॥
Āpan āp āpėh upā▫i▫o.
He Himself created Himself.
ਆਪਹਿ ਬਾਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮਾਇਓ ॥
आपहि बाप आप ही माइओ ॥
Āpėh bāp āp hī mā▫i▫o.
He is His Own Father, He is His Own Mother.
ਆਪਹਿ ਸੂਖਮ ਆਪਹਿ ਅਸਥੂਲਾ ॥
आपहि सूखम आपहि असथूला ॥
Āpėh sūkẖam āpėh asthūlā.
He Himself is subtle and etheric; He Himself is manifest and obvious.
ਲਖੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਲਾ ॥੧॥
लखी न जाई नानक लीला ॥१॥
Lakẖī na jā▫ī Nānak līlā. ||1||
O Nanak, His wondrous play cannot be understood. ||1||

That was an echo of what Guru Nanak Devji had said earlier.

Page 463, Line 4

Quote:

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓ ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਰਚਿਓ ਨਾਉ ॥
आपीन्है आपु साजिओ आपीन्है रचिओ नाउ ॥
Āpīnĥai āp sāji▫o āpīnĥai racẖi▫o nā▫o.
He Himself created Himself; He Himself assumed His Name.
ਦੁਯੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥
दुयी कुदरति साजीऐ करि आसणु डिठो चाउ ॥
Ḏuyī kuḏraṯ sājī▫ai kar āsaṇ diṯẖo cẖā▫o.
Secondly, He fashioned the creation; seated within the creation, He beholds it with delight.
ਦਾਤਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਸਿ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਪਸਾਉ ॥
दाता करता आपि तूं तुसि देवहि करहि पसाउ ॥
Ḏāṯā karṯā āp ṯūŉ ṯus ḏevėh karahi pasā▫o.
You Yourself are the Giver and the Creator; by Your Pleasure, You bestow Your Mercy.
ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣੋਈ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇ ਲੈਸਹਿ ਜਿੰਦੁ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
तूं जाणोई सभसै दे लैसहि जिंदु कवाउ ॥
Ŧūŉ jāṇo▫ī sabẖsai ḏe laisahi jinḏ kavā▫o.
You are the Knower of all; You give life, and take it away again with a word.
ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥੧॥
करि आसणु डिठो चाउ ॥१॥
Kar āsaṇ diṯẖo cẖā▫o. ||1||
Seated within the creation, You behold it with delight. ||1||

As per the Hindu tradition in general Ishvar sits in meditation, absorbed in himself. When he dances the world comes into being. When he stops dancing the world comes to an end, restarting the whole process, in an infinite cycle of creation, preservation and destruction. A very similar idea exists in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
Its metaphorical , poetic language.
For example, in Vishishtadvaita Vedanta creation is described through human procreation as a metaphor.

...or you can view it as an attempt of man to understand the cosmos. I won't tell you what to make of it.

And you are quite right to point out "eternal vs self-created" contradiction. It might have to do with the cyclical nature or samsara nature of the cosmos (no begining no end but cyclical, again as per Hindu tradition) but not too sure. I await responses from other members on this one.

One may choose to believe God = Universe but according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. God is much greater than the universe but his presence is found in every part of the universe, its not pantheistic "all = God", its pan-EN-theistic "all within God". Thus everyone has an essence of God, leading to the notion of equality among races, gender, sex, etc that is found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Mai Harinder Kaur · #7 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2010, 15:07 PM

Charan ji,

As I see it Sikhi is panentheistic and monotheistic.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31883

Pantheistic belief says that the universe is God.

PanENtheistic belief says that that God is both the universe and also "bigger" than the universe.

In other words, panENtheism says not that the universe = God, but that the Universe is in God. Think about this. I believe it will answer most of your questions here - and probably raise some new ones.

Charan · #8 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2010, 19:30 PM

Thank you so much Bhagat Singh ji for your answer, and Mai ji, thank you as well. So God is not only the universe, but that plus everything else… that makes sense 8) Can one say that God is the existence itself then? Things are a bit clearer now, but I’m still confused about the question about eternal vs. self-created … Maybe someone else can put some light on that question. Anyway, appreciate your contribution.

Mai Harinder Kaur · #9 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2010, 23:48 PM

Charan ji,

I hope this doesn't irritate you. I try not to get esoteric in my answers, but the answer to your "self-created vs. eternal" will probably sound a bit weird.

Both "self-created" and "eternal" are time-dependent. Time is an artifact of Maya in the form of the spacetime continuum. If you step outside of Maya into timelessness, the contradiction disappears. I cannot really explain that; I think it may be one of those things that must be experienced for oneself.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31883

Remain in chardi kala!

Charan · #10 (**permalink**) 19-Aug-2010, 00:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai Harinder Kaur

Charan ji,

I hope this doesn't irritate you. I try not to get esoteric in my answers, but the answer to your "self-created vs. eternal" will probably sound a bit weird.

Both "self-created" and "eternal" are time-dependent. Time is an artifact of Maya in the form of the spacetime continuum. If you step outside of Maya into timelessness, the contradiction disappears. I cannot really explain that; I think it may be one of those things that must be experienced for oneself.

Remain in chardi kala!

Wow, that’s deep. Mai ji, it does not irritate me at all, but I have to admit that I find it very difficult to fully understand your statement. I get stuck at the timelessness part, it’s difficult for me to even imagine what that is. As my philosophy teacher once said, think till your head hurts! So maybe, hopefully, I’ll get it if I think hard enough 8)