Is Salvation Possible In This Life ?

Originally Posted by namjap

Here are a few quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib on salvation:-

Page 33 ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਉਧਰੈ ਪਾਏ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
Sabaḏ marai ṯā uḏẖrai pā▫e mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
If one dies through the Shabad,
then salvation is obtained, and one finds the Door of Liberation.

Page 67 ਨਾਮਾ ਛੀਬਾ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਜਲਾਹਾ ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
Nāmā cẖẖībā Kabīr jolāhā pūre gur ṯe gaṯ pā▫ī.
Naam Dayv the printer, and Kabeer the weaver,
obtained salvation through the Perfect Guru.

Page 82 ਮੈ ਧਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਤੇ ਗਤਿ ਮਤਿ ॥
Mai ḏẖar nām aḏẖār hai har nāmai ṯe gaṯ maṯ.
The Naam is my Support and Sustenance.
From the Lord's Name, I obtain salvation and understanding.

Page 98 ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
Ḏīn ḏa▫i▫āl gopāl gobinḏā har ḏẖi▫āvahu gurmukẖ gāṯī jī▫o. ||1||
Merciful to the meek, Sustainer of the World,
Lord of the Universe-meditating on the Lord,
the Gurmukhs find salvation. ||1||

Page 114 ਪੂਰੈ ਗੁਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
Pūrai gur pā▫ī▫ai mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
Through the Perfect Guru, the gate of salvation is found.

Originally Posted by banmeetsingh1990

Respected Narayanjot ji,

If the concept of reincarnation is false and is but attachment to maya itself, how about karma ?

Here all I have is a comment.

Karma is typically discussed in relation to reincarnation, but it does not have to be connected to it. Buddhists may or may not connect the two. And in fact some branches of Buddhism talk about 12 different types of karma. One aspect of the 12 is that deeds or karams of one's present life have consequences for one's present life and into the future. This is simply the law cause and effect. So Karma as cause and effect does not have to be tied to reincarnation. Example from the Bhopal tragedy. Greed and neglect have caused thousands of innocent people to suffer. So far reincarnation does not enter into it.

if one does good deeds (karma) and the other does bad karma, doesn't these karma come back in some form or another back to that person. This way universe justifies every deed done.

This is the common idea of karma in relation to reincarnation. Justice is done in another life. Wicked people reincarnate to pay back their injustice. People who are virtuous reincarnate to a higher level as a reward. But now here is my question.

Is it your understanding that through suffering we cleanse or purify ourselves of the effects of bad deeds?

If one can get away with doing bad karma and inflicting others with suffering, where is the justice to those who have suffered ?

Here again I have a question for you. Are you thinking that justice comes in another incarnation? That those who have suffered reincarnate to a better life, as a reward for their suffering in this life? This goes along with the idea the suffering itself cleanses or purifies our souls. Do you believe that suffering cleanses karma?

Isn't it correct to assume that if I make someone suffer, i will also suffer in one way or another, Similarly isn't it correct to assume that if I have tried to cleanse my soul of five evils and have done some good deeds , shouldn't those good deeds come back to me ?

I do not know if your assumptions are correct or incorrect. There is another way of looking at this. Let me put it this way.


a. Let's say that I cause another person to suffer, because of my attachment to the 5 evils. Without recognizing my wickedness I remain the slave of the 5 evils. And at death I realize that power and wealth and physical satisfactions abandon me at the end of my life. What if on my deathbed I realize that I have been living a life that is a hoax? My body rots and I am forgotten by everyone in time? I die wondering whether my life had any use or meaning of my life? Is that punishment?


b.Let's say I am a person who has done mostly good in my life. The question here that needs to be asked: Did I do good because I cared about the reward I would receive? Was I more concerned to be rewarded with a better incarnation? Did I do good because doing good is the right thing to do, is its own reward, brings me back in alignment with the goodness of Waheguru?

How can people who have killed innocents in 1984 Sikh riots, will never be served what they truly deserve by this universe- which in itself is perfect ? (It has been created by the hukam of God)

This is where the questions about karma take on additional meaning because your are linking them to the idea of hukam and the perfectiono f His creation. I think this is what you are asking. If the universe is perfect... If all that happens in it is according to the Hukam of Akaal Purakh...how do the innocents receive justice and how are the wicked punished? Is that what you are asking? I need to know what your thoughts are before I offer my intuitions about this, because I think the answer itself may go well beyond the question of reincarnation.


How come a child suffer if he has no dues from his previous lives ? How come small children who can barely walk are infected by diseases such as HIV ?

I don't know. And your questions are exactly why I am not inclined to buy the idea that suffering in our present lives is a payback for evils done in a previous life. A God who would create such a universe in which the children suffer because of "dues from previous lives" to me seems a God who has set things up for his own amusement, A God who will sit back and watch people sin and then watch them suffer because of their sins. Here we get into a different arena completely. What is that connection between God and creation all about?

If there is no karma then isn't it true to assume that the world that we live in is imperfect form of God because there is no justice done ?

Why are you assuming that "karma" (law of karma) is the only way that justice can be done?

Why do you assume that by rejecting the idea of karma, the universe will be somehow less perfect that it is?

You make it seem that the perfection of the universe is dependent on karma. Do you really believe that?

Does our previous lives count for nothing ? what about the fact that a person goes through 84,00,000 reincarnations ?

Why assume that we had a previous life?

Do you believe that the 84,000,000 reincarnations means that each of us must go through 84,000,000 reincarnations? Or was Guru Nanak saying something different?

In the end this was my million dollar question all along : how can one find eternal happiness in this life ? The kind when we are in true union with God

If yes, then how ?

Does finding the answer to this question depend on karma or reincarnation? Was Guru Nanak saying that it was not necessary to find union with Satguruji?

(if we are in union right now and can't see that then how can we realize that we are one with god ?) Is this 'salvation/mukti' possible in this very life ?

Is the answer to this question found in Japji Sahibji? Is Guru Nanak saying that we can step out of the 84,000,000 joons paradigm of spiritual cleansing and mukhti, and step into a better paradigm?

This is really confusing and I am clearly perplexed. I need some guidance.


Regards.

Originally Posted by banmeetsingh1990

Respected Narayanjot Kaur ji,
Your comments are really introspective, I will try to think properly and reply ASAP.

There has been many comments in this topic that sikhism might not accept the idea of reincarnation and karma.
I was recently listening to Karma Katha (by Sant Hari Singh Randhawa wale). It is narrated by Bhai Daya Singh. Babaji explains that one vaisakhi (forgive me if I'm wrong) Diwan was decorated, sangat had come from all over the country. And Sangat asked Sri Guru gobind Singh ji to explain all about Karma. Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji inturn made Bhai Daya Singh to tell all about Karma.
This katha is available on net. here : gurmatchanan.com: Karam Katha

In this Katha Babaji frequently refer to previous lives and explains types of Karma. He also criticizes the comety's and people running administration of not popularizing it.
I was just curious, I mean this is a granth of Sikhism from times of Sikh history and explains in detail about karma and reincarnations. But i wasn't able to find anything on net about it.
Could this be something which sikh community has lost over time ?

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh

Namjap ji,

Guru Fateh.

Copying and pasting one liners about the Shabads is not only insulting to Gurbani, its message but also to our Gurus, especially when you post the incorrect literal translation.

Why don't you put the whole shabad at a time and express it in English in your own words which would be fair and just?

Regards

Tejwant Singh