Mathematics in Scripture?

This might be a little hard to explain without giving an example, and I won't give one because it may seems like I'm trying to peddle my own Holy Text. I have given up googling, I can't seem to figure out any adequate search terms. I was wondering about any of the Holy Sikh Scriptures, I'm trying to work out a report (as well as work out my own beliefs) on mathematics hidden within religious texts. I'm not just talking about cool numbers here and there in the text and their meanings, but Holy Seals behind the words.

I'm legitimately trying to get an answer, I'm sorry that the long explanation makes it look otherwise, please forgive me.

Wow, this is hard to explain. I've found some mathematical impossibilities in a Passage from my faith and so I'm trying to figure out where else these appear. I'll just give an example without a name, sorry, this is frustrating to explain. This specific passage of 12 verses (ironically enough with a history of early/late manuscript legitimacy controversy) has

1. 175 words (which comes out even when divided by 7, there are 25 sevens of words.)
2. 98 Individual vocabulary words (14 sevens)
3. 133 Individual forms of the words (19 sevens)

--The language is alpha-numeric, which means each letter has a number attached to it. It's like A=1 B=2 C=3 etc. Each letter (and therefore each word) has a numeric value attached to it.--

4. The numeric value of the whole passage is 103,663 (14,809 sevens)
5. Numeric value of the 133 forms -> 89,663 (12,809 sevens)
6. Out of the 133 forms, only 112 (16 sevens) occur once
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/30450-mathematics-in-scripture.html
7. The 98 vocab words have 553 letters (79 sevens)
8. 294 (42 sevens) of those 553 are vowels
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450
9. 259 (37 sevens) of those 553 are vowels
10. Out of the 98 vocab words, 84 (12 sevens) are found in the rest of that book
11. 14 (2 sevens) are only found in this specific passage
12. Out of the 98 individual vocab words, 42 (6 sevens) are used by the key Leader of the faith during His Speech
13. 56 (8 sevens) are not part of His vocabulary in this passage
14. 56 words (8 sevens) are used in His Speech
15. The rest of the passage has 119 words (17 sevens)

The 175 words in the passage (25 sevens) split into three natural divisions
[1.] V. 9-11 → 35 words (5 sevens)
[2.] V. 12-18 → 105 words (15 sevens)
[3.] V. 19-20 → 35 words (5 sevens)

[2.]
→ [V. 12] → 14 words (2 sevens)
→ [V. 13-15] (up to speech) → 35 words (5 sevens)
→ [V. 15-18] (just the speech) → 56 words (8 sevens)

Numeric Values
103,663 (14,809 sevens)

[V. 9-11] → 17,213 (2,459 sevens)
[V. 12-20] → 86,450 (12,350 sevens)

[9 → 11,705] (1,685 sevens)
[10 → 5418] (774 sevens)
[11 → 11,705] (1,685 sevens)

[V.10]
First word (ekeinos) → 98 (14 sevens)
Last word (klaio) → 791 (113 sevens)
Remaining → 4529 (647 sevens)

133 Forms (19 sevens)
When laid out alphabetically
First word is 224 (32 sevens)
Last word is 1134 (162 sevens)

175 total words/numeric values split into 4 categories:
Units (1 figure. i.e. '5')
Tens (2 figures. i.e. '17')
Hundreds (3 figures. i.e. '234')
Thousands (4 figures. i.e. '1897')

Two extremes (units/thousands) → 42 words (6 sevens)
Two inside ones (tens/hundreds) → 133 words (19 sevens)

Letters
V. 9-12 → 35 words (5 sevens)
14 (2 sevens) begin with a vowel
21 (3 sevens) begin with consonant
21 (3 sevens) end with vowel
14 (2 sevens) end with consonant
7 begin and end with a vowel
84 (12 sevens) syllables

Numeric Value of V. 9-12 → 17,213 (2,459 sevens)
When laid out, grab every 7th value of these 35 words: [1,400] [386] [1,171] [1,247] [857]
Adds to 5,061 (723 sevens)
Only one is divisible by 7 (1,400 → 200 sevens)

With the whole passage (175 words → 25 sevens) laid out, the values of every 25^th word are [791] [21] [591] [1533] [21] [651] [1113]
All but one are divisible by 7 (591)

DONE
This is not even half of the values that I have found, there are more for this one passage as well as similar results with many other passages in this Holy Book (The specific Book, not the full Holy Text)

So my question is, has there ever been any research done on the mathematical inner workings of the different Sikh Scriptures? Either research like this or other mathematical analysis's (or however you spell the plural of analysis)?

 
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mattqatsi ji

I cannot help you. Only can provide one tip. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib is written as a collection of musical compositions;; i.e, raags. For that reason alone it will and does have a mathematical structure, but not quite like what you are describing.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450

Maybe...because I confess I don't know exactly what you are talking about, try googling "musical structure of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Well since my beliefs are already out in the introduction thread, I'll say that this excerpt is from the Gospel of Mark. These last twelve verses, verses 9-20, are disputed in some Biblical circles. Some older manuscripts do not contain these last twelve, so the Divine Inspiration of them was called into question. What's funny and honestly pretty cool is that every time someone tries to attack the Bible with some "error" or some "contradiction," these apparent contradictions reveal a much much deeper hidden Truth. Seeking out the resolution of a contradiction sometimes, like this time, can prove that not only are two passages in agreement, it would be impossible for them to be written like that without Divine Guidance. (Quick example: People say that the Bible says the value of pi is exactly 3, which on the outside, surface interpretation, it does. But when you dig deeper, you'll find that we're given a number that works out to a value that is accurate to the 12th decimal. Pi wasn't even known to that degree until centuries later.)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450

I get a little excited about this stuff, and I thought you guys might find that cool since you're one of the few other faiths that believes in a Living Word. I really like that shared belief, that we're not satisfied with a God we can read about, I can't tame this Deity.

Anyways, I looked up the musical structure on google and I didn't really get what I was looking for. Do you know of any professional who you could refer me to?

As to what I was talking about, these verses, as well as a few others, have a heptadic structure in the original written Greek. It's a sevenfold structure, everything is wrapped in sevens, everything is divisible by sevens: the amount of words, the types of words, the number of letters, the numerical values of the letters, the numerical values of the words, the numerical values of sections. Nearly everything is divisible by seven. To me, this shows divine inspiration.
I mean, this is something that was written 2,000 years ago and the chance of the 34 different heptadic (sevenfold) features of this passage working out is calculated to be:
7^34 = 54,116,956,037,952,111,668,959,660,849
One million supercomputers, composing 400 million drafts per second, would require over 4 million years to complete that number.
And that's only with 34 features, I'm going through a book right now (and learning Greek along the way) that claims to have found 75 different heptadic features in just these 12 verses.

I should have chosen a less complex example, but this one still works. I was wondering if there was anything similar in the Sikh Scriptures since they're supposed to be another "living Scripture." (I'm not saying it isn't if there isn't, I'm just wondering if there's the same... mathematical wheels underneath the words.)

Start with this link

Gurbani Raags : SearchGurbani.com
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450

One of our moderators, NamJap ji,is a musician. He may be able to lead you to the sources you need.

Another forum member Manbir Singh is versed in these issues and his wife is founder of the Gurmat Gian Group. You can send him a private message. I am sure he can help you.

Thank you so much, I'll report back later with what I find.

mattqatsi ji,

Guru Fateh and welcome to the forum.

On the offset, I would like clarify that I am no one but a Sikh which means a student, a learner, a seeker, an inquisitive person. Sikhi urges us through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru- Teacher, to make knowledge our best friend.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450

So, I have some questions for my own understanding.

1. What does "Living Word" mean?
2. If there is "Living Word" then there has to be a "Dead Word" or not?
3. Is your mathematical genius, which it is and one can notice that from your posts, able to differentiate between the two? If yes then how and if not then why not?
4. When was the Gospel of Mark written?
5. Why didn't Jesus say or write anything himself?
6. Does your mathematical equation give us any reason/answer about number5?
7. How can these mathematical equations that you claim are in the Bible give us the tools to breed goodness within so it can be shared with others?

More to come after your responses.

I am sure our interaction will be very educational for both of us and other readers.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

I want to apologize before I post this. Have you ever been sleep deprived and something interesting comes your way and you end up talking and talking and talking about it? I did not mean to go on like this but it's a hard topic and my brain used a lot of words to describe some beliefs and history of the Bible even though I didn't come here to spread propaganda. But maybe you can see why I'm so excited about it all.

One way to avoid the kinds of problems encountered so far is to return to the issue of Mathematics in Scripture, which is a topic that some people find extremely interesting.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450

I have moved parts of this discussion to Interfaith Dialogs under the title, What is the Living Word? Thank you.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/christ...scripture.html

Originally qouted by mattqatsi : {So my question is, has there ever been any research done on the mathematical inner workings of the different Sikh Scriptures? Either research like this or other mathematical analysis's (or however you spell the plural of analysis)? }
After reading the First post by mattqatsi one gets only little but anyhow from the above words from mattqatsi's qoute the question he is asking is clear.And the answer to the best of my knowledge is "NO". And its simply because Gurbani teaches us not to believe in astrology and numerology ( you otherwise put as mathematical inner working). We in sikhism are just bothered about the message carried in the verses of gurbani.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450
First of all the verses you are discussing are unknown. you have not mentioned which scripture or which faith these verses belong to. Depending upon the faith or the mindset of the writer these verses might have been written keeping in mind the mathematical values. In that case nothing to wonder.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30450
In case You are refereing to any verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji then Naraynjot ji has tried to convey the correct answer. I will put some more light from the same prospective.
Gurbani is not a collection of musical compositions but its a collection of poetic verses of divine message. Whole gurbani ans most of religious scriptures are in poetic format. The poetic form of the verses are written in different poetic styles ( in punhabi we say Chhands or the study of Pingal ) In study of pingal while writing any poetry the count of all the words are being counted for, and the count ( weightage) of each alphabet vary depending upon the type of alphabet ( single or combined alphabets). In all types of poetry exept "Azad kavita ( khulli kavita ) one can find the mathematical inner working relationship of the alphabets.
If there are any mathematical inner working found in any verse or verses (Sri Guru Granth Sahib JI), it might be due to the poetic structure of all gurbani and let me be proud of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji because while writing most of the gurbani, utmost care has been taken from the poetic standards point of view.
I hope this may help you a little bit.
RoopSidhu