Who is closest to God?

hi everyone, i have a question which i hope you'll find interesting. before i pose it, i would like to say a couple of things.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/29503-who-is-closest-to-god.html

i have been on these forums before under different names. i was on here once as 'a muslim' and later as something else (can't remember the name i used then). as 'a muslim' i felt a great warmth from the spn community and a real effort to answer my queries for the sake of greater understanding. as the other name i was accused of being someone else (as i used someone elses computer, who also happened to be a member) who took an approach to questioning which the community didn't respond to as well. i was kicked off the forums even though i personally did not cause offence, and now i am back as i have more questions which i hope you will answer in the same spirit as you answered 'a muslim'. i wanted to clear that up in case the moderators thought i was an ill doer whose only purpose was to come here and cause chaos.

i really wish we can put all of that behind us as it affected my path to understanding sikhism. True, i am a muslim, and true, i haven't seen anything in sikhism that would make me want to convert; but true, if i perceived it as the best way to God i would convert, and true, even if i didn't, i have grown up alongside sikhs and feel a strong desire to learn their religion for the sake of increasing my understanding of that which they hold most dear. understandably, my sikh friends do not have amongst them the knowledge of religion which this community affords, so i consider it beneficial for me to be here.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29503

with that cleared, i would like to ask:

Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most, or the one who God has favoured the most, or the one who best followed God's commands, or the one who was in closest union with God?

and

what criteria do sikhs use to determine the answer to the aforementioned question?

the same question applies if sikhs believe more than one person to be closest to God.

as a side note, i think this forum is really well structured. whoever made it has done it well! apologies if my questions could have been in a more appropriate section

looking forward to reading your replies!
thanks

 
Do share your immediate thoughts or reactions on this issue? We value your views! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views with us.. Gurfateh!

divine outpouring,

Guru Fateh.

First of all, let me thank you for turning towards honesty as a Muslim unlike before. Truthful living is the cornerstone of Sikhi. By living in a truthful manner one can seek the truth.

You write:

Pardon my ignorance but your question makes God or whatever you may call him/her/it a person with human traits. Please elaborate what God is for you. Secondly according to your question, it seems that the God you serve has some favourite people and others not so favourite. Does your God take sides and is biased?


My earlier questions need to be answered by you so we can continue this interesting interaction.

Thanks and hope for the clarifications.

Tejwant Singh

divine outpouring ji

This is not my reply to your questions regarding religion, but only an admin note. Multiple identities are a violation of Terms of Service. SPN reserves the right to ban anyone using multiple identities without notice and without giving reasons. However admin and mentors are always lenient when they apply this rule. It is unlikely you as "a muslim" or in your "other identity" were banned (kicked off) because of your beliefs. The following scenario is more to the point.

Once a multiple identity is discovered, the integrity of a member suffers. Who are you really, one asks? If you are untruthful in one guise, can you be truthful in the other? Which identity is the one to believe? Or, can any be believed? Couple an uncertainty about truthfulness with a tendency of one of two identities/members to taunt other members and question their intelligence and religious sincerity. The combination is toxic, and no forum can permit it to go on indefinitely. That is the reflection in the mirror that I hold up to you.

Now like you I hope to put this behind us and to discuss a profound question in a way that allow us to learn from one another.

So divine outpouring ji

Your starter thread has the title, Who is closest to God? The title assumes that there can be a close, closer and closest relationship with God. And one would infer there is conversely a far, ****her, ****hest vantage point as well. And you also seem to be understanding love in terms of closeness to God and closeness in terms of love. Because you ask...

Who does God love the most? What criteria do Sikhs use to determine the answer to the first question?

There are no criteria. I say that without apology. Criteria are not needed. All of creation is simply close. In Shabad Hazure, Guru Arjan Dev ji tells us that God too near to be far.

In another shabad, we have glimpse into His indivisible, complete and total connection to us and all of creation.

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ਘਰੁ ੧

sorath mehalaa 4 ghar 1

Sorat'h, Fourth Mehl, First House:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਅਪਾਹੁ ॥

aapae aap varathadhaa piaaraa aapae aap apaahu ||

My Beloved Lord Himself pervades and permeates all; He Himself is, all by Himself.

ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ਜਗੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ॥

vanajaaraa jag aap hai piaaraa aapae saachaa saahu ||

My Beloved Himself is the trader in this world; He Himself is the true banker.

ਆਪੇ ਵਣਜੁ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਆ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਚੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥

aapae vanaj vaapaareeaa piaaraa aapae sach vaesaahu ||1||

My Beloved Himself is the trade and the trader; He Himself is the true credit. ||1||

ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹ ॥

jap man har har naam salaah ||

O mind, meditate on the Lord, Har, Har, and praise His Name.

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

gur kirapaa thae paaeeai piaaraa anmrith agam athhaah || rehaao ||

By Guru's Grace, the Beloved, Ambrosial, unapproachable and unfathomable Lord is obtained. ||Pause||

ਆਪੇ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਭ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਾਹੁ ॥

aapae sun sabh vaekhadhaa piaaraa mukh bolae aap muhaahu || Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29503

The Beloved Himself sees and hears everything; He Himself speaks through the mouths of all beings.

ਆਪੇ ਉਝੜਿ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪਿ ਵਿਖਾਲੇ ਰਾਹੁ ॥

aapae oujharr paaeidhaa piaaraa aap vikhaalae raahu ||

The Beloved Himself leads us into the wilderness, and He Himself shows us the Way.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੨॥

aapae hee sabh aap hai piaaraa aapae vaeparavaahu ||2||

The Beloved Himself is Himself all-in-all; He Himself is carefree. ||2||

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਧੰਧੜੈ ਲਾਹੁ ॥

aapae aap oupaaeidhaa piaaraa sir aapae dhhandhharrai laahu ||

The Beloved Himself, all by Himself, created everything; He Himself links all to their tasks.

ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਸਾਖਤੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪਿ ਮਾਰੇ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਹੁ ॥

aap karaaeae saakhathee piaaraa aap maarae mar jaahu ||

The Beloved Himself creates the Creation, and He Himself destroys it.

ਆਪੇ ਪਤਣੁ ਪਾਤਣੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਹੁ ॥੩॥

aapae pathan paathanee piaaraa aapae paar langhaahu ||3||

He Himself is the wharf, and He Himself is the ferryman, who ferries us across. ||3||

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਾਹੁ ॥

aapae saagar bohithhaa piaaraa gur khaevatt aap chalaahu ||

The Beloved Himself is the ocean, and the boat; He Himself is the Guru, the boatman who steers it

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਚੜਿ ਲੰਘਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਚੋਜ ਵੇਖੈ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥ Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29503

aapae hee charr langhadhaa piaaraa kar choj vaekhai paathisaahu ||

. The Beloved Himself sets sail and crosses over; He, the King, beholds His wondrous play.

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਖਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਹੁ ॥੪॥੧॥

aapae aap dhaeiaal hai piaaraa jan naanak bakhas milaahu ||4||1||

The Beloved Himself is the Merciful Master; O servant Nanak, He forgives and blends with Himself. ||4||1||

One can take this Shabad very seriously and take note that in nearly every line we are told that He pervades and permeates all of his Creation, and He is in and of Himself all of His Creation. He is the thread that links everything to everything. He speaks through all. There is no separation.

And so we read these wonderful metaphors: He is both the trade and the trader, the credit and the banker. These images tell us He is both the act and the doer of the act.

Other wonderful metaphors tell us that He cannot be separated from His Creation. As the wharf cannot be separated from the ferryman. He is both. The ocean cannot be separated from the boat. He is both.

And more metaphors tell us that He has never been separated from us. He exposes us to the wilderness (our self-created sense of being lost in an untamed place) but He guides us through it. He blends us to himself.

I am just touching on some things that stand out for me. But here is the curious line.

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

gur kirapaa thae paaeeai piaaraa anmrith agam athhaah || rehaao ||

By Guru's Grace, the Beloved, Ambrosial, unapproachable and unfathomable Lord is obtained. ||Pause||

He cannot be approached and he cannot be fathomed. Still he is the same God who blends everyone to Himself. How can that be so? The verse tell us that what is only an apparent contradiction is resolved by His Grace. These metaphors of complete and total connection found in this shabad are developed throughout all of raag Soraath. We are the ones who create our distance from God. The idea of close, closer, closest is our idea, not His.

ਤੂ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਵਸਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਉ ਨ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਗਵਾਰੀ ॥

thoo hiradhai gupath vasehi dhin raathee thaeraa bhaao n bujhehi gavaaree ||

You dwell, hidden, within my heart day and night, Lord; but the poor fools do not understand Your Love.

.

>>Pardon my ignorance but your question makes God or whatever you may call him/her/it a person with human traits. Please elaborate what God is for you. Secondly according to your question, it seems that the God you serve has some favourite people and others not so favourite. Does your God take sides and is biased?<<

I stated the question from 4 different perspectives so that amongst them you may find what I was trying to say. Let’s put it this way, God ‘raises’ and God ‘abases’. For example, in sikh understanding one may be reincarnated in a ‘raised’ state or ‘abased’ state depending on their current life. You can't take everything literally when speaking of God. So who has God ‘raised’ the most? And how did you reach that decision?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29503
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29503

If you want me to elaborate on my personal beliefs regarding God please start another thread. I will be happy to answer you there. I don’t think my personal beliefs have any bearing on this discussion – I want to know what Sikhs believe. When I use the word God take it with the Sikh definition.

>>Your starter thread has the title, Who is closest to God? The title assumes that there can be a close, closer and closest relationship with God. And one would infer there is conversely a far, ****her, ****hest vantage point as well. And you also seem to be understanding love in terms of closeness to God and closeness in terms of love.
There are no criteria. I say that without apology. Criteria are not needed. All of creation is simply close. In Shabad Hazure, Guru Arjan Dev ji tells us that God too near to be far.<<

In reality God has no material place and therefore no distance. What I’m asking about here is the human perspective. For example, why do you go to the gurus for guidance and not to an atheist, when “All of creation is simply close”. From our point of view there is obviously a difference.
When I asked a sikh friend I was told, “the ten gurus”. When I asked how that decision was reached I was not given an answer. That’s why I am here. Hope you understand the question the question now.

Divine pouring ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Where did you get the above from about Sikhi? Can you quote the Shabads from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru to prove your point because Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our only reference, hence our only Guru.

Everything is part of the discussion and interaction. Only by talking about each other's beliefs, we can create some kind of understanding, For me to respond from a Sikhi view point, I have to understand where you are coming from and your viewpoint about the entity/god you serve.

One does not have to start a new thread to talk about what you are asking here because I would like to know the same thing from you about your own faith.

Once again, let me ask you again, is the God you serve biased? According to initial questions, it seems that he/she/it is. Can you please elaborate it?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

>>>Where did you get the above from about Sikhi? Can you quote the Shabads from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru to prove your point because Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our only reference, hence our only Guru.<<<

I got that knowledge from sikh friends. I’d say it’s pretty common knowledge. The type of knowledge that doesn’t demand proof at every mention. You say your name is Tejwant, I take your word for it. When the beeb show a documentary about space and represent the earth as round, I don’t write a letter of complaint asking them to prove the earth is round. It is in the corpus of common knowledge, as is the basic idea of reincarnation.

>>>Everything is part of the discussion and interaction. Only by talking about each other's beliefs, we can create some kind of understanding, For me to respond from a Sikhi view point, I have to understand where you are coming from and your viewpoint about the entity/god you serve. <<<
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29503
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29503


My question is about human understanding, to speak of God’s attributes here is not warranted. From the ‘point of view’ of God I think Narayanjot’s answer was comprehensive. There is no distance.
Put it this way, you meet a person, you think, “gee, he’s a really good person”. What I’m asking is, how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people? What signs do you (Sikhs) look for? And to continue the thread, who is the best person? How did you reach that conclusion?

Hope that helps

Divine Pouring ji,

Guru Fateh.

If I told you that some Muslim friends told me that Islam discriminates against women, represses other religions, even beheads some Sikhs, which they did to the Sikhs, when they are trying to forcefully convert them into Islam, what would be your answer to that?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

If I told you that some Muslim friends told me that Islam discriminates against women, represses other religions, even beheads some Sikhs, which they did to the Sikhs, when they are trying to forcefully convert them into Islam, what would be your answer to that?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29503
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29503

wow, now we've really drifted from the initial question. Seriously this is getting low, if you don't want to answer the question don't post a reply. Narayanjot, if you're reading this then i'd like to thank you for replying in a more serious manner, although i don't think you quite understood the question, however after reading your reply i can understand that my initial post could have been clearer.

i'm genuinely looking for a serious discussion. Narayanjot (or anyone else who is can provide insight), i would appreciate it if you could answer the following question as you seemed to be genuinely interested in providing an insight;

who is the greatest person that ever lived? how did you reach that conclusion?

thanks