Gurbani Debate : Bhai Kulbir Singh of Toronto and Prof. Inder S. Ghagga

Gurbani Debate : Bhai Kulbir Singh of Toronto and Prof. Inder S. Ghagga

[PART 1] Gurbani Debate : Bhai Kulbir Singh of Toronto and Inder S. Ghagga
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/29433-gurbani-debate-bhai-kulbir-singh-toronto.html



[PART 2] Gurbani Debate : Bhai Kulbir Singh of Toronto and Inder S. Ghagga



[PART 3] Gurbani Debate : Bhai Kulbir Singh of Toronto and Inder S. Ghagga



[PART 5] Gurbani Debate : Bhai Kulbir Singh of Toronto and Inder S. Ghagga



[PART 6] Gurbani Debate : Bhai Kulbir Singh of Toronto and Inder S. Ghagga

 
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S. Kulbir Singh Ji is a amongst the well intented few amongst pro-Dasham Granthis of AKJ & Inder Singh Ghagga is a known ATHEIST of the Spokesman group . I must say it is a shadow boxing ( Noora Kushti ) between RSS/AKJ & Congress/Spokesman groups both anti-Sikhism to the core . The real target is the Sikh Rehat Maryada of both these groups , both of them have only one target to break Sikh Rehat Maryada by hook or crook , everything else is just a eye-wash . Sikhi is at a real cross-roads today .

Dalbir Ji, Gurfateh.

You left out the BADALITES..and SANT SAMAJI BABAS....who recently destroyed the Nnakshahi Calendar and now aim their AK47's at the SRM !! These TWO are much much more dangerous than the groups you mentioned..simply becasue as we saw in the Nanaksahi calendar issue...the Badal-Sant combine control the Takhats !! and thus have the sword to cut the SRM into shreds much easier than akj/rss/spokesmna/atheirsts etc can do...
YES the Guru Khalsa PANTH must awaken..and GUARD its HOUSE..NOW or forever be silent...

Thanks Gyani Ji for pointing out my ommittence . This so-called SANT SAMAJ is a group of parasites , I have always stated this since very long . SANT SAMAJ is a group of Charlatan Babas consisting of Damdami taksal ( Dhumma ) , Nanaksarias both of whom have their own respective Maryadas ( most anti-Gurmat / Brahminical Maryadas ) totally against the Gurmatt , other SANTS like Dhadrianwala who are all out to promote self-worship in garb of promoting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji . Badal is following them like a lamb because in his opinion they hold the key to SGPC elections . This Badal had struck Sikhism like a Bijli ( lightening ) totally strangulated it not knowing how to free itself from it . Which is why I'm in favour of all committed Sikhs backing PS Sarna ( though his role in blocking justice for 1984 victims is known to all ) . This role might be a part of the deal he might have with the Congress but Badal has totally squandered the gains of last 60 years ( if any ) Sikhs had made by cancelling Nanakshahi Calender , this came as a huge shock for me personally . Get rid of Badal even if you have to join hands with anybosy in this whole Universe , this man is making sure that nothing is left of Sikhi by the time he leaves this Earth . Only PS Sarna is in a position to offer any meaningful challenge to Badal , rest all IMHO are just PAID AGENTS of Congress or RSS mere toothless tigers . All Sikhs back PS Sarna in coming SGPC elections everything else will fall in place .

Gurfateh !

i am always intrigued by the blind use of this "Atheist" argument raised by a particular section of Sikh Sangat.

Please take no offense, but i would like to know the definition of an Atheist in general terms as well as in terms of Sikhi. Because according to the analogy above, anybody who questions the prevalent belief system is/was an Atheist?? And, using same analogy, if Guru Nanak Sahib opposed every blind follower of His times, would that mean that Guru Nanak was an Atheist? Or we can say that person following Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru is an Atheist?? I don't think so this is the correct point of view to judge a person.

In the context of using term Atheist (a person who 'believes' that there is no God/Almighty), i would be really careful to distinguish this term from the term Skeptic, a person who questions the prevalent belief systems.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29433

Guru Nanak was the greatest Skeptic of all times, who challenged the prevalent belief systems to the core. It is but obvious that a True Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahib will always be Skeptic... Be it questioning the belief system of own self, others or more importantly prevalent belief systems of his own community, presently.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29433

Gurfateh!

Aman Ji..
Thanks for explaining this "atheist" label so well...
It is very very popular among the pro-DG crowd to call all opposing sikhs as "atheists".."Communists"..or Kaumnashat (Punjabi slang for Communist !!).
SO ALL and sundry...are "atheist/communist/kaumnashat"...IF they oppose..say..Dhoops in Gurdwaras..or Jyots of pure ghee..or cocnuts wrapped in red cloth...or bakras being jhatkaad in Hazoor Sahib..or Nihungs drinking Bhang shardaee..saying jhatka meat is ok and just halal meat is not ok...etc etc....and of course the biggest atheist/communist/kaumnashat label in CAPITALS is reserved for any SIKH who questions any tuk of DG...and even if he just Subscribes..or even READS FREE..the Internet edition of The Rozana Spokesman..he is also an "ATHEIST/COMMUNIST/KAUMNASHAT" of the BIGGEST ORDER.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29433
This label is in ADDITION to the slightly older ones ..Pro-RSS, RSS agent, GOI Agent, Congress Agent...and was probably invented just in case these older labels wont apply becasue many Sikhs in the Diaspora are not congressis/rss/bjp/akalis etc etc...so new labels were invented to be applied to them....now a days it is so fashionable to apply these labels to any one who opposes your own ideas on what is " Sikhi"....so I am also an ATHEIST/COMMUNIST/Kaumnashat....... because I say that MOST SAKHIS are fables and TALL TALES, that there is no Sant baba besides Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, that there is no need for any Ghee JYOTS besides the ETERNAL JYOT of GYAAN burning in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..that there is no need for any coconuts or red cloths at Akahnd paaths - even no use for any such paaths as akhand becasue there is no such mantar paath...no sampat paaths, no paid paaths, no paid ardasses by post/via internet etc etc etc etc....no Kachi banis dhaarnas...no mass amrits and conversions...no use of Gurbani as cures for bodily diseases..no teeraths and no pilgrimages and no baths to wash sins....etc etc .... becasue i beleive in FREEDOM of the PRESS and read the Rozana Spokesman daily without fail and dont "stand to attention" whenever the ardass is broadcast on my TV via satellite or Cover my Head and sit crosslegged in my hall watching TV whereby Live GURBANI is coming in from Amritsar....or wehn reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on my Computer screen....etc etc etc etc etc...OH SO MANY REASONS that can be listed to qualify for this "label"..most important now is..pro-dg are all SAINTS and anti-DG are all *******/congressis/goi agents/rss/atheists/communists etc.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29433
What low levels have the Sikhs reduced the Ultra Modern GURMATT that Guru nanak ji introduced...in just 500 short years we have GONE BACKWARD faster than all other religions....back to 13th Century..PRE-GURU NANAK JI ( if that is possible ??)..and we are picking up speed as we reverse !!!happymunda..BUT Thank Goodness there are quite a lot of SANE SIKHS around...and their numbers are actually increasing as reality strikes..

Aman Ji ,
My term ATHEIST is for Kala Afghana , Ghagga & all other members of the Spokesman / Indiaawreness Group . They first start out very promisingly trying to promote TAT-GURMAT to free Sikhi from Brahminical influence . Slowly their REAL AGENDA comes out , Bhagat Bani is not Gurbani , Amrit Sanchar was done in 1698 & not 1699 , Transmigration ( 8.4 million births ) is a Brahminical idea , Simran is tota Rattan ( parroting ) , There is no need of Kirpan the modern need is for Gyaan Khadak ( Sword of knowledge ) , Sikh Rehat Maryada needs to be changed because it contains many mistakes , There is no ambrocial hour ( amrit Vela / Early morning hours ) , any time we remember God is Amrit Vela . The list is very long but I always use this term for all of the Spokesman Gang .

Dalbir ji,
My take on this is slightly different.

1. Bhagat bani/bhatt bani/sunder ji bani/farid ji bani..were all first questioned by the BHASSAURRIAH Panch Khalsa Diwan...their leader was EXCOMMUNICATED for actually Printing a Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji bir WITHOUT those Banis. Teja Singh Bhassaur DIED without an apology. BUT he was Pardoned RECENTLY BY Akla Takhat !! ( He definitely DID NOT APPEAR before the Akal Takhat to ask for forgiveness..as is the precondition TODAY !!)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29433
I have NOT heard anyone else say this about these Banis...i would be grateful if you could point me towards any solid proof...articles/videos where anyone says those things.
MANY Bhassaurriahs are at the FOREFRONT of the DG Taskforce and Propaganda machine...on the Internet...leading me to beleive their real agenda is attack the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (which of course they allege at the so called "atheist missionaries/India Awareness/Rozana Spokesman group of Tatt Gurmatt.

2. ON the "definitions" of popular words...Amrit Vela..Kirpan..Amrit..sarovar ishnaan..teerath yatra..mouthing of waheguru as a RITUAL..their views are being MISQUOTED. The EMPHASIS is ONLY on those who...THINK and ACT as IF..getting up at 2.30 am..IS ALL THAT is required for SPIRITUAL GROWTH.....teerath Ytara washes sins..wearing a Kirpan is Primary and GURBANI VICHAAR is "secondary"... etc etc.
I ma completely in agreement with this. In my book also..GURBANI VICHAAR..study..PRACTISE..carrying the GYAAN KHARAGGH..Sword of KNOWLEDGE that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji provides us with...is NECESSARY..even VITAL....to PROPOGATE and GROW our RELIGION. A non-SIKH wants us to INFORM them about what is inside the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...what GURMATT teaches...( the kirpan anyone can see for himslef...and people do NOTICE it..hence all those so called security problems at airports and all...BUT the GYAAN KHARAGH..SWORD OF GURBANI KNOWLEDGE..is very very RARE !!!..and a LOT of EFFORT has to be put in to carry this sword...most sikhs today take the EASY WAY OUT..many amrit sanchaars frequently GIVE OUT FREE KIRPANS !!! BUT NOT the GURBANI VICHAAR !!

ALL these RITUALISTIC SIKHS..now FEAR those SIKHS who Carry the GYAAN KHARRAGH...just as much as others "fear" the Sikh carrying a " even a TINY steel...kirpan" on board an aircraft. NO SIKH has ever been stopped for carrying a Gyaan kharragh except by the PUJAREES and Jathedars of the takhats becasue that type of SIKH is a DANGER to their VESTED INTERESTS !! That is why they are so eager to "enforce" their hukm by police forces also..or by goondagardee.

Just for the RECORD..I do my Nitnem..i also carry the Steel kirpan..BUT I spend way MORE TIME trying to acquire the GYAAN KHARRAGH....the "steel kirpan" has been taken away by Airport security many times..BUT MY GYAAN KHARAGH...stays with me 24/7 !!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29433
I say my "Wahegurus"..BUT I spend way too much time trying to PRACTISE GURBANI..Honest Labour..Waand Chhaknna..as Guru nanak ji did in His FIELDS...the latter is difficult and back breaking...BUT that is what GURBANI is all about..PRACTISE...PRACTISE..and P R A C T I S E>>>>>>

3. The SRM is a MAN made document....and can be wrong/wrongly worded/found wanting on many accounts etc etc...and can be AMENDED in the LIGHT of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurbani.About the One and ONLY document that CANNOT be amended is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...as this is DHUR KI BANI sealed by GURU JI.