FreeWill as Per Gurbani

If Waheguru ji controls everything, if a leaf cannot even move without his will...why do we go astray and make big mistakes? are those also of his will? were we meant to wander away?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/28959-freewill-as-per-gurbani.html

if in the physical world, every breeze, every ripple in an ocean is predestined and by his will alone... what about the spiritual world... is the distance of our minds from waheguru's grace also predetermined?

are we meant to make the mistakes we make? and if you've done something wrong, how do you repent?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

im fairly new to this website, and am just beginning to learn about Sikhism....so please include some quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to explain.

Thanks.

 
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Navdeep ji

Welcome to SPN. I hope that you will continue to ask such thoughtful questions. And Thank you for reminding all of us who post that we should use Shabads when we reflect on complex questions such as the nature of His hukam.

I do want to put a little context in place early on. The word "hukam" has been variously translated into English to mean: command, ordinance, order, will. These words create an impression that hukam reflects the personal will of Waheguru. This may or may not be accepted by each and e very member. This happens because the fundamental meanings of "hukam" depends on how one interprets the relationship between Waheguru and his creation. Hope that made sense.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

Good luck with this thread. Let's see what happens.

FREEWILL....yeah....IF I tell YOU...." LIFT up one leg please."..YOU have the FREEWILL..to lift up any one of your legs..Left..or Right.

BUT ONCE THAT has taken place...your FREEWILL ends. IF I now tell you..Lift up the "other" leg...YOU CANNOT exercise your "freewill" WITHOUT first putting DOWN the leg you carried up earlier...or lift up the second leg without putting down the first one...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959
ALL those considerations are CONSEQUENCES... of your FREE WILL DECISION. You alone are RESPONSIBLE for those CONSEQUENCES !!

Spot on Gyani ji,

I do not think there is such a things as total free will. Everything is governed by certain Laws.

The Laws pertaining to human behaviour are that Kaam, Krodh Moh, Lobh and Hankaar will lead you astray.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

Just like a leaf will fall to the ground in Autumn.

God is the Law setter, but we have free will within those laws. Everything is in balance.

"The Laws pertaining to human behaviour are that Kaam, Krodh Moh, Lobh and Hankaar will lead you astray."

Randip Ji, I agree. I think its also interesting that several forum members have also mentioned (in other threads) that these five need to be controlled, not eliminated. It's true that everything is governed by certain laws and everything is in its own balance.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

If God is beyond all time and space, yet resides in every second and every being...then everything that's in this mind is also his, he plants the CAPACITY of all thought and action. I think that means that the five major sins also stem from capacities that are essential to life. (ie. Anger, when it is controlled, is necessary. You have to have some fire in you to stand for what you believe in...and what would life be without attachment). And this can probably be applied to all five, that when they are controlled, they are not bad, they're natural.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

But if he planted these capacities in our minds, he also gave us awareness for our minds to know where the limit is to their usefullness. We can choose to nourish our minds in any way, he gave that much freedom. (Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji, I like how you've described this "freedom" and its consequences).

If we choose to overstep the limits, we've been given the awareness to know of our wrongdoings...because all five, when they flourish have the same result: stomping on or controlling another human being in one way or another.

He gave this mind enough understanding to pursue his path, or its own. I asked this question several days ago and have been thinking about it: We are MEANT to make mistakes, all mistakes that any human being can possibly make, we are meant to make every single one. But by his word, we try our best to choose not to. (Narayanjot Kaur Ji, I was hoping for some more discussion on "hukum"...)

Navdeep ji,

Guru Fateh.

Welcome to the forum.

Freewill is a phrase concocted by Christianity and the other Semitic religions to project everyone born as a sinner because of naughty Adam who did not obey his omnipotent God. If God is omnipotent, then no one has the power to have any kind of will, hence the obvious contradiction.

Now, the question arises, do animals have freewill? The fact of the matter is that Mad cow disease occurred when we fed meat to the cows who were created to eat veggies.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

"The spread of BSE is the result of animal feeding practices that are harmful in a variety of ways,' Katz said.

Feed animals that should be herbivores are provided meal that contains the ground-up parts of other animals. This, of course, carries with it the risk of spreading disease, but it also changes the quality and composition of meat intended for humans, Katz explained".
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

Origins of mad cow disease

All animals except humans follow the order created by The Source.

It is our so called intellect that screws everything up in us. The five thieves that we can not live with or without, depending on the degree and our controlling power, are also based on intellect- freewill. Gurbani teaches us how to lasso them in order to find the Gurmat fulcrum within.

Now, as far as Hukam is concerned, this may sound repetitious as I have written the same in another thread but it is worth mentioning it here too.

In my opinion, Hukam means: what ought to happen in any form or shape is going to happen. Our limited, limited language and intellect cannot express it nor can they grasp this Wow! and Awe! factors of Hukam.

We should not confuse human actions good or bad, in actions with the Hukam of The Source which in itself is unfathomable and indescribable. Hukam teaches us acceptance which is umpteen steps ahead of tolerance that other dogmatic religions teach.

Hukam is a vast tent under which all humanity has the capability of living in harmony.

Mool Mantar is the blue print of Truthful living, Jap is its foundation and the rest of the Guru Granth teaches us that if we abide by the Hukam, then we can all lead a truthful life, irrespective of our hue, creed or faith.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

"We should not confuse human actions good or bad, in actions with the Hukam of The Source which in itself is unfathomable and indescribable."

Tejwant Singh Ji,
Thanks for your reply. I'm tempted to ask the question: where does human action end and hukam begin? But I think that's just looking into the abyss. Its all his, in whatever way it may be, in whatever way it ever was and ever will be. and that is so hard to accept. its just the natural for humans and our intellect to question and when the answer is in a blindness you can't conceive, its hard to accept. I once had a philosophy prof claim that he was certain that science would one day answer everything about the universe and its ways.....very hard to accept.

Just a great exchange between you Navdeep ji and forum member Tejwant ji. I am very much uplifted by it.

Thank you , this is a very good environment to pose questions in, and very knowledgeable members to guide and answer them.

why is it looking into the abyss?...this is where the fun starts. can free will be explained mathematically?

anywhere where the outcome of an action approaches a -->100% reliability of certain outcome is where free will does not exist. (these limitations are determined through repetitive experience)

according to this, only physical laws fall into the godly restrictions where free will cannot be applied.

if we have no conscious understanding of physical laws then we are truly free to chose...but then existence itself is not understandable.


that said:

Free Will & Determinism
"Consciousness seems to be intimately and inescapably tied to the perception of the passage of time, and indeed, the idea that the past is fixed and perfectly deterministic, and that the future is unknowable. This fits well, because if the future were predetermined, then there'd be no free will, and no point in the perception of the passage of time."

considering we perceive the passage of time...free will exists.