FreeWill as Per Gurbani

Sinister · #10 (**permalink**) 24-Jan-2010, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navdeep88

Thanks for your reply. I'm tempted to ask the question: where does human action end and hukam begin? But I think that's just looking into the abyss. Its all his, in whatever way it may be, in whatever way it ever was and ever will be. and that is so hard to accept. its just the natural for humans and our intellect to question and when the answer is in a blindness you can't conceive, its hard to accept. I once had a philosophy prof claim that he was certain that science would one day answer everything about the universe and its ways.

....very hard to accept.

why is it looking into the abyss?...this is where the fun starts. can free will be explained mathematically?

anywhere where the outcome of an action approaches a -->100% reliability of certain outcome is where free will does not exist. (these limitations are determined through repetitive experience)

according to this, only physical laws fall into the godly restrictions where free will cannot be applied.

if we have no conscious understanding of physical laws then we are truly free to chose...but then existence itself is not understandable.

that said:

Free Will & Determinism
"Consciousness seems to be intimately and inescapably tied to the perception of the passage of time, and indeed, the idea that the past is fixed and perfectly deterministic, and that the future is unknowable. This fits well, because if the future were predetermined, then there'd be no free will, and no point in the perception of the passage of time."

considering we perceive the passage of time...free will exists.

Navdeep88 · #11 (**permalink**) 24-Jan-2010, 13:21 PM

Sinister Ji,

Thank you for the insightful reply. I agree with the reasoning behind choosing to believe in free will. But to me it seems like an illusion, a very useful illusion. To believe in free will, is to believe the future is completely unknowable. But the future is knowable. DEATH, its existence is a certainty (100% reliability, therefore, end of free will). However, death is not a repetitive experience....we know of its existence but have no conscious understanding of it. Isn't that the abyss?

To carry on with life, we have to ignore death's existence, we have to ignore the truth of it...but what other option do we have? Is that where faith starts, to say that it is all his, all sin, all love?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/28959-freewill-as-per-gurbani.html

I am very curious to find out what your interpretation of hukum is.

Narayanjot Kaur · #12 (**permalink**) 24-Jan-2010, 23:46 PM

Just a moderator's note. Virtually no modern philosopher today believes that either "unconditional free will" or "pure determinism" are intellectually respectable positions.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

Gyani ji wrapped it nicely for me. If someone says "Lift your right leg off the ground," then we can choose whether to follow the directive. Or we can choose not to follow it. But if we do choose to lift our right leg, and then we "choose" to lift our left leg, we soon discover where free will ends.

Sinister · #13 (**permalink**) 25-Jan-2010, 04:48 AM

You have a very interesting post…let us communicate further

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navdeep88

To believe in free will, is to believe the future is completely unknowable.

Let me put it this way... To believe in free will is not to believe that the future is unknowable but that at some point in the future will involve choice and that choice carries with it an outcome (Giving the decider the burden of responsibility). Without choice there is no rational explanation for the existence of morality and really no basis for denoting responsibility of an action, onto an individual. (this is the mode of operation in which societies operate)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navdeep88

But the future is knowable. DEATH, its existence is a certainty (100% reliability, therefore, end of free will).

Death is the end of free will because we cannot chose not to die. But living is different from dieing…agreed? and living will determine how you die...so there is choice in death itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navdeep88

However, death is not a repetitive experience....we know of its existence but have no conscious understanding of it.

That depends on your definition of experience. Experience is not always first hand but can also be experienced through repetitive observation and communication (faith in what is relayed during communication).

If you watch a child throw a ball in the air and if it were to come back down to the ground 100% of the time…you can effectively deduce what is likely to happen when you throw that ball in the air.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navdeep88

Isn't that the abyss?

To carry on with life, we have to ignore death's existence, we have to ignore the truth of it...but what other option do we have? Is that where faith starts, to say that it is all his, all sin, all love?

This is very a true statement for everyone who is not suicidal.

For example take ‘value’; Value is something that can appear and evaporate (as was recently seen in the economic collapse of 2009). Value is a social/economic construct that involves the exchange of energy on a fluctuating faith based system. Value exists in a society and many times is derived from a non-existing physicality…yet it exists nonetheless on the basis of faith…faith based primarily on the premise that life must be lived, survival requires energy and that survival/reproduction is paramount.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navdeep88

I am very curious to find out what your interpretation of hukum is.

Hukam, for me, is another social construct that helps reinforce the basic tenants of maintaining life; have faith in society, in economy and you will have lived not just existed.

Many will say that Hukam is "divine will". God wills it and so it becomes reality over the progression of time. but what if god willed us to have choice?

Tejwant Singh · #14 (**permalink**) 25-Jan-2010, 05:12 AM

Sinister ji,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

Guru Fateh.

Well said!

Navdeep88 · #15 (**permalink**) 25-Jan-2010, 12:08 PM

Sinister Ji,

What you say makes a lot of sense. Life is for living, not just existing. And the choices that we are given an opportunity to make, we must make them with full responsibility and awareness of the possible outcomes in mind. I agree with most of what you have said.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

The only point that I would differ on, is that I am beginning to believe in "divine will"...I cannot simply call it a social construct...there's just too much... i don't know....maybe it is a weakness of intellect or the inability to digest reality as it is...but as it stands, there is much to learn!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28959

thank you very much for your input!

Sinister · #16 (**permalink**) 25-Jan-2010, 13:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navdeep88

The only point that I would differ on, is that I am beginning to believe in "divine will"...I cannot simply call it a social construct...there's just too much... i don't know....maybe it is a weakness of intellect or the inability to digest reality as it is...but as it stands, there is much to learn!

No NO NO no no no no no no no!

The belief that we were not keepers of our own destiny, is very much entrenched in the human psyche by an evolutionary process. (this exists in EVERYONE)

I agree with an author by the name of Dr. Cordelia Fine who calls this, “The Vain Brain”. Basically our brains go to amazing lengths to bias perceptions in our favor, it shields us from failures, which in turn, actively prevents mental disturbances like acute or chronic depression. Basically those who are most highly self-aware and thus more honest with themselves show a higher propensity to develop a severe case of depression.

The social construct of Hukam could be just that...a defense. It is very crucial in our existence and it has nothing to do with a weakness of intellect like you mentioned.

Basically our brain subconsciously but actively looks for excuses when we fail at a task. Some will blame others, random natural events, some will blame gods, whatever excuses they can find to protect self-image.

The belief that an outcome is the result of a divine will can shield us from failure and be an asset. But if it goes too far that we never learn from our mistakes the belief can very much become a liability.

The protection of self-image can go to truly bizarre lengths…but so can non-protection of self-image, look up “Cotard Delusion”.

So, Navdeep88 ji chances are pretty good that your life is happier than mine.

Narayanjot Kaur · #17 (**permalink**) 26-Jan-2010, 00:17 AM

Sinister ji

Without commenting upon my reaction to your view or that of Navdeep ji in this particular part of the discussion, I do wish to say one thing. Thanks for your use of the term "social construct of Hukam." It distinguishes the variety of ways in which cultures have over the centuries defined this term, possibly confusing social meanings with the intended meaning of Gurbani. This can make the discussion of "hukam" as a Gurmat concept very confusing, convoluted, and difficult.

Sinister · #18 (**permalink**) 26-Jan-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur

Sinister ji

Without commenting upon my reaction to your view or that of Navdeep ji in this particular part of the discussion, I do wish to say one thing. Thanks for your use of the term "social construct of Hukam." It distinguishes the variety of ways in which cultures have over the centuries defined this term, possibly confusing social meanings with the intended meaning of Gurbani. This can make the discussion of "hukam" as a Gurmat concept very confusing, convoluted, and difficult.

Well N. Kaur ji

I know that through his Hukam I was talked out of owning a refrigerator that dispensed ice…or was that YOU? Or was it ME? or was that him working through you to convince me? or was that him working through me to convince myself? or was i already convinced by him before i asked the question? was there even a choice to begin with?

see im confused already

I’ma just gonna blame the big guy on this one. Let you off the hook so that you're not overcome with guilt and do something irrational...like... going out and buying an ice dispensing refrigerator

P.S: I just realized I used the word “Basically” three times in my last post and I would like to tell the members on this forum that I am truly ashamed and just as appalled as you, and I promise I will not put anyone through that again…or maybe god should not let that happen again (this is really fun...and liberating).