Dukh Bhanjani Sahib

Tejwant Singh · #19 (**permalink**) 10-Sep-2009, 00:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur

Tejwant ji

Why do you think that a web site like www.ragkaregakhalsa.com has included Dukh Bhanjani Sahib among its gurbani files. After thinking through this conversation, it seems strange to me.

Narayanjot ji,

It is more because of a long tradition, fear of what may happen as if Ik Ong Kaar is a punisher if one does not do Dukh Bhanjani paath as instructed by elders of the household and lack of deep understanding of Gurbani which makes the Gurmat thought process a bit shallow and last but not the least, -it does not matter or there is no harm kind of Punjabi mentality.

We always had Dukh Bhanjani Sahib's gutkas at our house and several of them and were urged to do it.

When one puts all this in Punjabi cultural gumbo, then there is no thinking required and the things continue as mere mechanical rituals rooted in family traditions where elders have the power and are always "right".

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh · #20 (**permalink**) 10-Sep-2009, 02:25 AM

Harbans ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Quote:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji puts genuine Sants on a very high pedestal. The whole of Ashtpadi 13 of Sukhmani Sahib dissuades us from doing Ninda of Genuine Sants and tells about the beneficial effects of their company. Many other passages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji say the same thing.

So lets not wholesale reject the role of genuine Sants in Sikhism. That itself will be going against Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji!

The question arises who are the Sants? Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our ONLY Guru tells us that all of us are capable of being Sants. Secondly, there is no pedestal for any Sikh. We are all equal in the "eyes" of Ik Ong Kaar. Our Gurus never put themselves on any pedestal. They were our mates as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is now.

Guru Gobind Singh ji lowered himself down to our level so we could be lifted to his through Khandei di Pahul.

So, Sants are not of some class on their own. Who is a genuine Sant and who is not, if measured by the human's benchmark, then it becomes a very subjective thing. The same person can be a genuine Sant for some and a real Thug for others.

Only Ik Ong Kaar knows which milestone each of us is at no matter how long some of ours cholas are.

The best part of Gurbani is that it gives the tools to all of us to raise our level of normalcy and become lotuses raising ourselves out of the muck of maya. Hence, all of us are capable of that.

Lastly, when Gurbani talks about Sants, Brahamgyanis etc. etc.,it attaches these people with their actions and deeds, which means these are not any titles/nouns but adjectives which require the continuous actions of goodness.

In other words, a spring of water ceases to be a spring when the water dries up and then, it just becomes one more hole in the ground.

Nothing more but one more insignificant hole.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #21 (**permalink**) 10-Sep-2009, 07:10 AM

There are also many more such "collections"...one is "SUKHMANA Sahib"...Male of Sukhmani !!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26528-dukh-bhanjani-sahib.html
The POINT to note is..THEY ARE ALL MAN MADE...collected together into "GUTKAS" ( over which there is no central or any type of control as is over Birhs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...) so ANYTHING goes...and the collection criteria is.."based on SUPERFICIAL LITERAL meanings of the shabads....why DUKH BHANJAN..when in Rehrass we read..DUKH DAROO..sukh ROG bhaiyah ?? To soemone losing a Court Case is DUKH...and he reads a shabd to alleviate/avoid this particular "DUKH"...another may have been arrested over a bribe...and faces the court..he too reads the Dukh Bhanjani sahib to escape "punishment"...etc etc etc..each has his /her own 'dukh"..which are all actually physical, brought upon ones self by ones own actions, etc etc....IF a person were LIVING ACCORDING TO GURBANI in the first place..he would realise that DUKH DAROO SUKH ROG Bhaiyah..is Right..and that BOTH are in HIS HUKM.
Same applies to all other collections...they are PICKED/CHOSEN from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by individuals who based their choice on superficial understanding of the WORDS....and NOT the actual DEPTH Meanings of Shabads...and they give one a False sense of "security"..
AAGHEY JIVEHN GURU NU BHAVEH..has to be !! Simply BECAUSE NO MAN..sant or Brahmgyani can ALTER the CREATORS HUKM. Thats is actually a DISCLAIMER..a washing off ones hands in case the RESULT is NOT as expected....OH..then in that case its the GURU who is responsible..not me..i did my best.( BUT IF the result is as the sant said..then..sant jis reputation gets five stars...and GURU is a forgotten word...)
IMHO..its always bettert o let prople know the TRUTH from day one...no point in slowly easing in the truth...one day will come when the TRUTH will OUT.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26528

1. Juts as a matter of Interest...the Most SELLING "GUTKA" of all is the AMRIT KIRTAN POTHI..which ALL kirtaniyas use for Kirtan...that is a COPYRIGHTED GUTKA..shabads put together by an individual...
2. The SUNDER GUTKA is another such gutka...another best seller...
3. Any one can put together a Gutka/pothi etc..no control...and name it any way he likes...
4. Sikhs love to PUT "SAHIB" as a tail to anything and everything...when the REAL MEANING of SAHIB..is THE CREATOR !!

a small joke..a Nihung sat down beside a person in a train. From which station did you board ? asked the Nihung..Patna replied the man. Straight away the Nihung slapped the man and said..Patna SAHIB is the correct name. Where are you going ? was the next question..Ananadpur..replied the man..and got another slap...Anandpur SAHIB !! Now the man was determined not to get slapped again....The Train stopped at a station..and the Nihung asked the man..what station is this...he hesitated and repleid..Kapurthala SAHIB..the Nihung once more slapped him..Oiyeh you just dont add SAHIB to any Tom and Harry place...!! but Sikhs do just THAT...

harbansj24 · #22 (**permalink**) 10-Sep-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

AAGHEY JIVEHN GURU NU BHAVEH..has to be !! Simply BECAUSE NO MAN..sant or Brahmgyani can ALTER the CREATORS HUKM. Thats is actually a DISCLAIMER..a washing off ones hands in case the RESULT is NOT as expected....OH..then in that case its the GURU who is responsible..not me..i did my best.( BUT IF the result is as the sant said..then..sant jis reputation gets five stars...and GURU is a forgotten word...)

Gyani ji,

Now this is approaching total cynicism. The Sant is damned if he does and damned if does not!
A genuine Sant has a proper recognition as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. "Sidak" in Guru's Shabad and not cynicism is the way of our Guru.

harbansj24 · #23 (**permalink**) 10-Sep-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Lastly, when Gurbani talks about Sants, Brahamgyanis etc. etc.,it attaches these people with their actions and deeds, which means these are not any titles/nouns but adjectives which require the continuous actions of goodness.

Tejwant ji,

It is correct that only the actions determine a person. But a Gurmukh or Sant (same thing) has reached a position from which he does not slide back.

But persons like me oscillate from being a Manmukh, a Sanmukh and occasionally can only at the most reach the fringes of being a Gursikh.

But Gurmukh is different. (Gurmukh rom rom Har dhiyaveh). When he reaches the position when every pore of his being is immersed in Simran, then where is the question of his sliding into mediocracy?

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #24 (**permalink**) 10-Sep-2009, 13:06 PM

Harbans Ji,
Imho its not cynicism. AS Gurbani declares..SACH senaisee SACH KEE BELA...even the TRUTH has a certain "time frame" for it to be told... a TRUTH REVEALED decades later has no effect on events...the "truth" is no more as powerfrul....its emasculated.
Recently an elder of a political party in Malaysia revealed such a "truth"..that in 1970, he "pocketed 30 votes meant for Candidate B"..and as aresult Candiadte A won the Presidency and remained President since...and NOW Canddiate B is once again trying his chances..after having been over 40 years in the wilderness. This "TRUTH" has no value..40 years ago it had value...Now 40 years past its BELA..its no longer SACH as should be..its "sach"...
GURBANI is Eternal TRUTH and its BELA is NOW...the person in authority who is aksed..MUST tell the TRUTH NOW. At one time..Sulhi Khan came on the Offensive to KILL Guru Arjun Ji....He was dragged into a burnign kiln and destroyed and nothing happeend to the GURU...that TRUTH is in GURBANI...years later CHANDU also came on the OFFENSIVE..and this time Guru Ji was MARTYRED on the Hot Plate...again its the TRUTH.
And OUR weakness is we prefer to "choose" the Sulhi Khan "
truth" as preferred..hence our preoccupation with Bhagat Prehlaad..sakhis..Bhagat Kabir Ji and the River Ganga sakhi..Bhgat Namdev Ji in front of the Mad elephant sakhi..etc etc..when Guru Ji says that we MUST go for the ULTIMATE TRUTH and BE PREPARED FOR THAT at all times..and say TERA BHANNA MEETHA LAGGEH.
THIS shaky ground scenario leads many to beleive that One Bhai Makhan Shaha Lubanna prayed for his ships safety..and GURU TEG BAHADUR ji came running to save it...BUT then in 1947 more than 5 LAKH sidkee Singhs.sikhs.daughters of sikhs...PRAYED and PRAYED..and jumped into wells..died fighting the rmapaging mobs..were killed defenceless..DIDNT even ONE ARDASS of their equal that of Makhan Shaha Lobanna ??
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26528
In June 1984..the Hundred Thousand DEVOTEES were Specifically in Harmandar sahib to do ARDASS for Sarbatt Da bhalla/Guru Arjun jis shahedee..YET Operation Bluestar happened and all of them DIED..were their ARDASSES not of a standard of lobanna's ??
THIS is becasue we are LOST to the FINAL TRUTH..TERA BHANNA MEETHA LAGGEH..as Guru Ji declared on the HOT PLATE !! the Final TRUTH.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26528
The GURUS took 10 jammas..travelled 240 YEARS through TIME..so that WE DONT HAVE TO TRAVEL..we dotn have to take STEPS..1..2..3..4..5..to arrive at the FINAL TRUTH..Guru Ji has doen all that Preparatory work for US already....The FINAL TRUTH..the FINAL PRODUCT the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in a THAAL in front of us..to EAT..Khavo buncho !!!

harbansj24 · #25 (**permalink**) 10-Sep-2009, 15:00 PM

Yes Gyani ji, the ultimate truth is with Akal Purakh. In our hands we have Ardas, Simran and Guru's Shabad. All incidents are truth of Akal Purakh. Even when sitting on Hot Plate Guru ji was reciting Shabad and was doing Simran. But we cannot be equal to the great Guru. We are much much lesser mortals and hence are highly falliable. So we need the crutches of Gurmukh Sants to help us through trial and tribulations and face the truth with some degree of fortitude. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji recognises the need. Hence the several references to Sants in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26528
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26528
Needless to say Chardi Kalan is the state of mind and not entirely dependant on the situation of a person. And Chardi Kalan also enhances the abilties of the person. The finest examples being Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh.
So Sidikki Sikhs do Ardas more for being in Chardikalan than for anything else and also do Shukrana (Thanksgiving) for each 4 pehar (12 hrs of day or night) that has passed. Very ordinary Sikhs (like me) require the the guidance of Gurmukh Sants to even understand (let alone interpret) Guru's Shabad correctly.

Tejwant Singh · #26 (**permalink**) 11-Sep-2009, 00:32 AM

Harbans ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Quote:

a Gurmukh or Sant (same thing) has reached a position from which he does not slide back.

I beg to differ with you. Perfection is only with Ik Ong Kaar. We humans are not perfect and the same goes for any Gurmukh or Sant, hence we are humans.

If a Gurmukh/Sant becomes perfect then Ik Ong Kaar does not need to be forgiving. His job is done, but the fact of the matter is that is not the case. This bar is even too high for a pole valuter to cross no matter how long or how flexible his/her pole is.

I would like to mention once again what I said in one of my other posts that a horse rider who claims to never have fallen off the horse has never ridden a horse.

If a Gurmukh/Sant becomes perfect then he/she does not have to do any Ardaas after doing paath ( Studying Gurbani) and ask for forgiveness for his/her mistakes.

It is more a utopic idea than a Sikhi one.

Any human no matter how high he or she has attained the spiritual level can not become perfect. Only Ik Ong Kaar is, which is worth repeating here.

All of us fall down, it is part of the human nature. Gurbani gives us the tools how quick to get up, dust off and carry on and yes, with time and perseverance of using the tools given to us by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we will fall less, but we will still fall.

So, who is to say who is a Gurmukh and who is not? Only Ik Ong Kaar knows that. Yes, in our lives we like to meet people who can motivate us to breed goodness within with the help of Gurbani. The basic idea of Sikhi is that then,we as Sikhs- Gurmukhs would pass on the goodness to others what we have learnt.

Let me close by saying that if a Gurmukh/ Sant does not slide back then he/she stops being a Sikh which means a student, a learner and one can only be a learner or a student when one makes mistakes. That is the human nature. It is the law of the land established by Ik Ong Kaar.

Sikhi is not based on any utopia but on pragmatism. That is why other religions promise Heavens, 72 virgins etc. etc.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #27 (**permalink**) 11-Sep-2009, 06:22 AM

Sikhi is not based on any utopia but on pragmatism. That is why other religions promise Heavens, 72 virgins etc. etc. ..............

EXACTLY and APTLY put TeJi...

The Highway called GURMAT.....is straight and Narrow..sharper than the sharpest blade of the Khanda..thinner than the thinnest hair...no "promises" just plain hard work !!..Kirt karo, Waand chhako and Naam Jappo..no IFS and no Buts...no maybes..1429 angs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..same message. NANAK NEECH kaheh VICHAAR....