Support for the Concept of Reincarnation in Sikhism?

Veer Amarjit Singh Bamrah ji the following is wrong translation,

Let us review the Sabad again as below,

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥
Salok mėhlā 3.
Shalok, Third Mehl:
ਸਲੋਕ ਤੀਜੀ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ।
xxx
xxx

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਜੀਅ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
Bin saṯgur seve jī▫a ke banḏẖnā vicẖ ha▫umai karam kamāhi.

ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੋਂ ਖੁੰਝ ਕੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਦੇ ਆਸਰੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਉਹ ਕਰਮ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਤਮਾ ਲਈ ਬੰਧਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।
Without serving the eternal creator, deeds done with ego become restraining shackles.


ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਠਉਰ ਨ ਪਾਵਹੀ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Bin saṯgur seve ṯẖa▫ur na pāvhī mar jamėh āvahi jāhi.

ਸੱਚੇ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਬਗੈਰ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਆਰਾਮ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ। ਉਹ ਮਰਦਾ, ਮੁੜ ਜੰਮਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਠਉਰ = ਟਿਕਾਣਾ, ਇਸਥਿਤੀ, ਭਟਕਣ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ।
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਕਾਰ ਨਾ ਕਰਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਤੇ ਥਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ, ਉਹ ਮਰਦੇ ਹਨ (ਫੇਰ) ਜੰਮਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ) ਆਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਫੇਰ) ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।
Without serving the eternal creator, there is no steadiness; death, birth, come and go.


ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਫਿਕਾ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Bin saṯgur seve fikā bolṇā nām na vasai man māhi.

ਸੱਚੇ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਦੇ ਬਾਝੋਂ ਫਿਕਲੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਬੰਦੇ ਦੀ ਬੋਲ ਚਾਲ, ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਟਿਕਦਾ।
xxx
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਂਜੇ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਬੋਲ ਭੀ ਫਿੱਕੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ 'ਨਾਮ' ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ।
Without serving the eternal creator, empty deliberations and understanding does not stick in mind.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਜਮ ਪੁਰਿ ਬਧੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਨਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
Nānak bin saṯgur seve jam pur baḏẖe mārī▫an muhi kālai uṯẖ jāhi. ||1||
ਨਾਨਕ, ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਦੇ ਬਗੈਰ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ, ਸਿਆਹ ਚਿਹਰੇ ਨਾਲ ਖੜੇ ਹੋ ਟੁਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਹਿਰ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਰੜ ਕੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਪਿੱਟੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।
ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ = ਕਾਲੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਨਾਲ, ਮੁਕਾਲਖ ਖੱਟ ਕੇ ॥੧॥
ਹੇਨਾਨਕ! ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕਾਲੇ-ਮੂੰਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤੋਂ) ਤੁਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇਜਮਪੁਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਬੱਧੇ ਹੋਏ ਮਾਰ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਇਸ ਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਮੁਕਾਲਖ ਖੱਟਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇਅਗਾਂਹ ਭੀ ਦੁਖੀ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ) ॥੧॥
Nanak, without serving the eternal creator, these end punished tied down and leave with a blackened face.

Quote:

ESSENCE: Guru ji explain the concept of serving the creator and understanding the same. Deeds done with ego, shallowness just lead to misery, restrained living and legacy devoid of achievement.

All errors are mine and I stand corrected.


Sat Sri Akal.

 
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We can learn from Gurbanee that there are two concepts
One is that of "Transformation " from one form to another and
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26474-support-for-the-concept-reincarnation-sikhism.html
The other is that of " Incarnation"

Both concepts are valid.There is no negation of these two concepts but we are missing the context in understanding.
When We see the reference of 84 lac Joos like that this is related to the concept of "Transformation" and this can not be ruled out.For this we need to understand Gurbanee more in depth to extract the validity of the concept.

The process of transformation can be looked like this.Thru the knowledge of Science
it ihas been possible to give different shapes and form to any ELEMENT.Even man has succeded in converting Coal (lowest form of Carbon) into Diamond(Highest Form of Carbon).This transformation is man made.

So why it is not possiblle the transformation of different forms per se by THE ULTIMATE CREATOR.

Now theconcept of INCARNATION in Gurbanee is related to as the complete transformation of the thought process perfectly alligned with ULTIMATE CREATOR.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
This transformation is related to human form and that is why HUMAN FORM is the most Wonderful and Desired form.

Prakash.S.Bagga

Ambarsaria ji,
Both translations are correct but one posted by Amarjit Singh ji is closer to Prof Sahib Singh's Teeka than yours is. And Prof Sahib Singh is more accurate to the the Gurmukhi than you.

I have noticed that even though you use Prof Sahib Singh's teeka you don't stick to it. It's not much of a problem in any particular case but if you continue making small deviations from it, in the end you will be very far away.

Bhagat Singh ji I don't make Punjabi Translations. Those are from Bhai Manmohan Singh ji and Prof. Sahib Singh ji. I am using my head between all three that I see when I translate (Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, Bhai Manmohan Sing, Prof. Sahib Singh). At any given time I am going to differ from all. I generally follow Prof. Sahib Singh ji and then Bhai Manmohan Singh ji. Rarely I use Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji's translation of Punjabi. Some time for Synonym variety for certain words.

It is great to see a young man throwing pebbles at no matter what and how one does. I am not riding a train to get mis-directed where translations are accumulative. Translations are scrutinized by me for each word, line and sabad with the sources the best I can. It will be wonderful to see you do some and I promise not to throw stones. Of course it is always easier and convenient to throw stones (yours are little pebbles) rather than put yourself in a position to be challenged. We are all different and there is perhaps a reason.

I am trolling a little bit of the Sanatan crowded space in couple of threads as I see them descend in flocks for certain posts only and usually in support of anti-Sikhism myths that have been debunked by Guru ji and such people are trying to link back.

Sat Sri Akal.

Bhagat Veer Ji

I think a large part of understanding Bani is to cross reference with your heart and inner feelings, as a wise man once said, 'Luke, trust the force...', If one were to stick to a teeka, instead of using it for guidance, then what exactly is the point of study and learning, we may as well just post established teeka's instead.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474

For the record, given the background and roots of reincarnation, I do not believe the first Master would laud such a concept, however it is ambiguous enough to address the issues of the time, and way beyond that.

A good teacher helps you learn, helps you understand, rather than giving you the answers on a platter......

Ambarsaria ji,
Do you want a hug?

Veer Bhagat Singh ji I will always pat you on the back as a young man. Last time a very friendly younger person gave me a pretty surprise and strong hug. My ribs were bruised and painful for a few months as ribs shifted. So I ain't going to go for a hug. Your contributions, comments (positive/negative) are a form of hug.

Thanks and have a great evening.

Sat Sri Akla.

"I am trolling a little bit of the Sanatan crowded space in couple of threads as I see them descend in flocks for certain posts only and usually in support of anti-Sikhism myths that have been debunked by Guru ji and such people are trying to link back."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474


Well my goodness ji aren't you ignorant "ji"

Its because of people like you that I don't come here.

Gurfateh

I will be frank, there are times when I spot an interesting thread and then while i'm getting into it alot of members have steered away into another lane for another issue.
Thus the original title is still unanswered.

Being frank, I believe there is a 'concept for reincarnation in sikhism'.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
This concept is quite different to how other religions portray their own concepts.

To say that no reincarnation concept exists in sikhism, I think is a very narrow minded view.
Being quite frank and honest here, a lot of subjects and WHY's. IF's and HOW's that we all question actually don't make any sense to my personal beliefs if I throw the reincarnation concept out.

I personally do not understand how all these simulataneous events are occuring in the universe if they were no concept and maintenance of balance.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh