Sikhi's Root in the Eternal Shabad-Guru

Hi Naingwin1976,

Once again, welcome to the forum. I sincerely hope that you enjoy your stay and that our interactions lead to both parties forming correct view. I also hope that we both do our upmost to remain polite, respectful but honest whilst cultivating a cordial relationship.

To re-iterate, the objective of these posts is to show that Sikhi is its own Dharma which has not derived its teachings from another but is linked to the Eternal Shabad, and it will be done by going through a set of arguments.

If the opportunity ever arises I would sincerely wish to set up a thread which discuss the similarities and differences between the two Dharmas, but the first objective is paramount.

I would like to say from the outset I am not the most PC of people at the best of times, but when it comes to writing, I do my best to ensure that it will get through the legal department so to speak. I do call a spade a spade but please do not take offense and try to see the message that my words are conveying. Likewise, the same applies to me.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/23945-sikhis-root-in-eternal-shabad-guru.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

I would also like to add that these posts are a lot longer then normal and may even deviate to address other related issues, but I hope that you, along with others, have the strength to follow through to the end.

Thanks,

Lotus

 
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1) The Word Sect
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

The word sect is what causes Sikhs a lot of grief, and if I may speak frankly, is an insult to me as an individual and a vast majority of The Sikhs, if not all of us.

Not only because it is completely incorrect but because it can mislead Brothers and Sisters who are not aware of the sheer fundamentals of their Dharma, causing them to fall into turmoil, confusion and anguish for no reason, and as Sikhs, we will not allow that.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

By definition, a sect is a body that has broken off from a larger group due to a dispute about their religious doctrine.

Let us take Buddhism as an example.

Major schools of thought would be Theravada, Zen, and Mahayana.

Now let us take Islam.

Major Schools of thought would be Ahmadiyya Shi'a and Sunni

What can be noted is that they derive their teachings from the their parent religion but had a dispute on some level causing a different school of thought to be set up and as a result have deviated from their orthodox teachings.

Sikhi has not derived its teachings from Islam, therefore a dispute with respect to this could not have taken place, so no deviation has occoured and as a result it is totally fallacy to say that Sikhi is a sect of another.

As an analogy, consider If I were to make the statement 'Islam is a sect of Buddhism' pointing out the similarities between Buddhism and Islam to sphere head my arguments', then attempting to say that Islam is infact Buddhism as their teachings have come from The Buddha. One would most possibly laugh.
But if I were to continue down this avenue with force, I would begin to cause offence and anger.

If on the other hand, I were to make the statement that 'Islam and Buddhism have not derived their teachings from another, and are simply expressing key principles in different ways', then we have automatically created a platform where there is ample room to discuss similarities and differences without any room for mallace.

And this is exactly where Sikhi stands. Sikhi is its own Dharma as the Bani is rooted in the Eternal Shabad. The Teachings of the Sikh Dharma are not derived from another but is the re-expression of the Shabad in its original form.

Any step taken to say that Sikhi is merely a sect is an attempt to cause confusion amongst Sikhs, to reduce its impact on the world and stop Sikhi taking its rightful roots which is totally unacceptable.

Thanks,

Lotus

2) Passages in the Guru Granth Sahib

A Foreword on the Guru Granth Sahib:

"Something that must be noted is the uniqueness of the Guru Granth Sahib.

It is the only 'Scripture' in the world that is still in its original unaltered form for over 500 years and is made up of the writings of the very Gurus and is completely authenticated by the Gurus. No other religion can make this claim.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

It holds a special status in the heart of The Sikhs as it is more the scripture, but considered the embodiment of the teachings of the Gurus, representing the Shabad-Guru in the written form and is as a result is revered with that same level of respect.

In doing so, we are being instructed to form a direct connection with The Higher conciousness taking direct control of our destiny and to not rely on a Middleman, Be it the Guru or a Saint, to apparently bail us out when our actions have been less then correct."

Each and every page is equal to another so Sikhs do not differentiate between Authors and as a result I will freely pick passages from the entire Guru Granth Sahib to support my arguements.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945
Sidhs have already asked this question to Guru Nanak

Guru Nanak spoke to many people of many Dharmas in his travels along with the Hindus and the Muslims. One set was the Sidhs. The conversation that Guru Nanak had with them has been documented in the Sidh-Gohst. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 938-946 incase anyone is interested.

Several questions were put to Guru Nanak and to each an answer was provided.
For the sake of this discussion, I have selected questions that I feel are appropriate.

"Who is your guru?"
-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 942

To which Guru Nanak replied:

"Nānak jug jug gur gopālā.
O Nanak, throughout the ages, the Lord of the World is my Guru."
-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 943

As well as:

"Whose disciple are you?"
-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 942

To which Guru Nanak Replied:

"The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple."
-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 943

Note the answers when openly asked: Who's Disciple are you: the Shabad, an Islamic Name for God was not chosen and this is a fundamental question especially since there are only 99 Names of God according to Islam and had Guru Nanak wanted to illustrate the point clearly this would have been the perfect opportunity and corrected the Sidhs.

I am Not Hindu, nor am I Muslim

Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:

I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan.
I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end. ||1||
...
I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.
I serve the One Lord, and not any other. ||2||
I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.
I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||
I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 1136

The above passage is indeed an unparrelled one in all Dharmas.

Jews could argue that Christians are a sect of their Dharma, Which gave birth to a sect called Islam, but there is nothing in the Torah the Bible or the Quran that can categorically refute this claims in the same way that the passage above does.

The Sikh Dharma has an unparrelled passage that deals with this question and unequivocally and unapologetically states in no uncertain terms, without room for any other interpretation that the Sikhs of the Guru are not Muslim,or Hindu for that matter, and consequently the teachings cannot be branched off of them either.

There are also more passages, such as Dhoor-Ke-Bani (Bani from afar) Ik-Ongkar (One God) and Ajap-jaap (The unchanted Chant) but i fear that i would not be able to discuss them without running into several pages and wish to respond within a timely manner, but hopefully the opportunity will come.

Thanks,

Lotus

3) Difference in Philosophy

Where Sikhi and Islam differ quite fundamentally is on the basic kernels of philosophy.

For Me, The core Philosophy of Sikhi can be described by the following points:

1) There is 1 God for all known by many names worshipped in many ways.

2) Upon a physical death the Soul is reincarnated into another life form.

3) The differences in people's lives, be they rich or poor, Black or White, Fully abled Disabled and so forth is not by random chance, but by Karma which we are all heirs of and are effected by the way that we live.

Islam on the other hand can be described by the following:

1) God Has a set number of Names and there is a prescribed way of connecting with it via the prostration alone. Any other way is incorrect.

2) 'Good' Muslims are destined for an eternal heavenly afterlife based on the way that an individual has lived one life here on Earth, whilst Non-Muslims irrespective of their conduct, even if it was better then the good Muslim, is automatically destined for an eternal fiery Hell.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

3) As far as I am aware, Islam does not explain why there is such a wide variety in the conditions in people's lives. I.e. No Karma (on a Side note I would like to find out what Islam says about this.)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

If the pure fundamentals are this far apart, then it can quite clearly be seen that Sikhi and Islam are their own Dharmas.

Thanks,

Lotus

4) History

This I feel is not a point that should be skimmed over, but at the same time not something that we should dwell over too much either as it could be considered a source of friction for both parties involved.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

Guru Arjan Dev Killed by Muslims on Hot Coals
Guru Tegh Bahadur was Killed by Muslims by Beheading
Guru Gobind Singh's children were bricked alive by Muslims

Bhia Taru Singh's Cranium was removed after he refused to remove his Kesh
Bhia Mani Singh was cut to pieces
Bhia Sati Das was sawn in half

Bandha Singh Bahadur was forced to eat the flesh of his own child upon capture
Baba Deep Singh defended the sanctity of the Harminder Sahib
Bhai Massa Rangar defended the dignity of the of the Harminder Sahib
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

Countless Genocides of The Sikhs at the hands of Muslims/Islam.

More recent events include the creation of Pakistan from the land of the Gurus and the grooming of Sikh Women in the UK.

Perhaps the last comments were a little under the belt, but I feel that they have to brought to the forefront whenever this topic is discussed.

If we are considered a sect, then the treatment we are met with could hardly be deemed respectful and it is because of the actions of Muslims that we have a less then cordial relations.

Thanks,

Lotus

5) Travels

A point that is regularly brought up by Muslims is that Guru Nanak travelled to Mecca and apparently performed Hajj. This is a fallacy of the highest order and I will do my best to remove this doubt.

The travel to the Middle East was but one of the four major journey travels that Guru Nanak performed to spread the teachings of The Eternal Shabad. These included North into Tibet, East towards the Bengals and South to the Ends of India.

The travels of Guru Nanak have simply been over-milked by Muslims for their own gains as a method to convert Sikhs who are unaware of their Dharma.

Brother, please note that it is not my objective to insult you, and to pause and reflect on the following sentences.

It is well known that Guru Nanak Slept with his feet towards Mecca. When the Muslims asked him to move his feet his response was to move them where does God not exist. Upon doing so, the image of Mecca was always there.

If I was meant to go on Hajj but instead pointed my feet towards it, would you still proudly proclaim that I have renounced Sikhi and adopted Islam??

Naturally it would be deemed an insult, but Muslims regularly use this as an illustration to 'trick' (apologies, not other word came to mind) Sikhs ignorant of their Dharma that Sikhi is apparently a sect of Islam.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

Thanks,

Lotus

6) Conclusion

As a result of the above arguments', it has been shown that Sikhi not derived its teachings off another, that there are passages which categorically support this, the sheer kernels of philosophy are on opposite ends of the spectrum, the historic interactions have been less then respectful, and the travels of Guru Nanak have been over exggerated. It can therfore clearly be seen that Sikhi is linked to the Eternal Shabad.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945

My best regards,

Lotus Lion

Lotus_Lion ji

This is a great idea precisely because you have framed the discussion in terms of similarities and differences -- and by doing that the discussion has a structure. I myself look forward to the discussion and will follow through.

Antonia

Dear lotus lion Ji,

I'm a very strong muslim myself but I ready to agreed that some of peoples are taking advantages of some event. one things i'm not sure it when GURU started preaching it, after that event or before. i'll find out the date and let you know.

any how it's good to discuss with you coz seem you learn a lot. we could gain and share our knowledge each other.

naingwin1976

Dear lotus lion,

this is my first post in this topic. Can i discuss by proving that

It is the only 'Scripture' in the world that is still in its original unaltered form for over 500 years and is made up of the writings of the very Gurus and is completely authenticated by the Gurus. No other religion can make this claim.

I didn't i greed that at all. Especially high light one. coz over 1450 years passed already Koran is unique and unaltered since it's written and itself already claimed and challenge nobody can able to alter or writ similar one. Are you agreed that?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23945
I got evidence.

thank
naingwin1976