God's Will and The Law of Karma

Astroboy · #64 (**permalink**) 20-Dec-2008, 00:14 AM

OK Sainty JI,

Lets leave the past in the past and concentrate on the present moment. Let me ask you a question, Sainty Ji.

If God willed the creation of this duality world, then we are faced with cause and effect on the daily basis.
It is action and reaction in a sense. But if we do not react to what someone else said to us, in the manner
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/23626-gods-will-and-the-law-karma.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626
which that person expected us to react, then the energy "bomerangs back" to the sender because there is no receiver.

This I believe is part of the Law, the Hukam.
*

pk70 · #65 (**permalink**) 20-Dec-2008, 00:29 AM

It starts with ego and continues with it till it gets dirty. Intellectuality brought civility in the society but this ego intoxication many times supersedes every bit of intellectuality and civility as well. Intellectuality inspires to remain civil but ego pushes it to jump into jungle-thinking to blur the luster of intellectuality. Ego forces others to judge others without looking into their own selves about how much capability they have even to understand simple examples. An example of a frog is given by Guru Nanak in Gurbani to express how one doesn’t become aware of the good stuff in the surroundings, in that case ego can question
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626
“How a frog can understand music, it is not proven scientifically” That’s not intellectuality but stupidity for not understanding metaphors. Gurbani quoting is to understand what Guru says, if the interpretation is not satisfactory, who feels problem with it, should interpret it better way and let others decide if that new meaning sounds better in stead of blaming or judging others. Comparing Gurbani quoting to Kuran quoting of Mullah is a sheer display of ignorance nourished by that ego that keeps thinking stagnant to own created righteousness. That is another reason, as per History, people who think themselves more intellectual than all others, act stupid too. Almost all established scholars agree about being inable to understand Gurbani to its complete sense on many instances. This site is to discuss many kinds of discussions, sex and other topics are very important for the youth. They ask questions here to get some information. It is not against Sikhi if the Sikhi is not a different than we most of have known about it. Gurbani addresses almost all issues we face every day. I feel, personally, that the ones who have problem with disagreeing and who harbor out of control judgmental behavior should look them selves to mirror before they point fingers at other. Picture will be perfect clear

lalihayer · #66 (**permalink**) 20-Dec-2008, 09:51 AM

was Guruji passionate about Gods will?

I think, Yes. First bani in Guru Granth Sahib starts with pauris explaining 'Hukam'. It has to be important concept in Sikhism. Why is important to understand 'Hukam'?
Aside from it being 'the truth', another reason is 'ego', 'Ego' is one of most powerful emotion we have to fight in our lives. Accepting 'Hukam' is essential to kill that beast. We must understand whole universe is pre-destined since first incident in universe. Every action cause a reaction and every action is also caused by another previous action.
I will try to explain a little bit more.
If we think carefully about our life, we will realize that life is nothing but sequnce of events or incidents. Some are small. Some are really big. Most we can't even remember that those occurred. One thing led to another and I end up writing these thoughts on my computer. One thing led to another and you end up reading my thoughts on paper or computer screen.

Is there any chance this present would have been different than it is now?

I watched a movie 'Butterfly Effect' sometime few months back. The name of the movie refers to the idea that a butterfly's wings might create tiny changes in the atmosphere that may ultimately alter the path of a tornado or delay, accelerate or even prevent the occurrence of a tornado in a certain location. In little more simpler words, a small action done now may cause a very big reaction sometime in future. Another example is a ball rolled from top of hill may go on rolling across many valleys before stopping depending upon conditions and slope of hill.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626

If we analyze this Butterfly Effect, another question comes along.

If flapping of butterfly's wings can cause big tornado in future, how can a butterfly flap a wing without anything causing it ? Something must have caused it to flap in first place.

This universe came into existence unknown time ago (Big Bang or any other expalainations) and after first incident in this universe, sequence of events started to happen as per the Laws Of Nature. One sequence of events led to another and another led to many other. Every event happened as a result of some number of events and resulting event happened after taking account Laws Of Nature.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626

These sequences are running in whole universe from minute level to grandest levels as per Laws Of Nature and will reach a position of final fate for universe sometime in future.

To explain further, I will take two successive moments in timeline of universe.

First moment is there. Every part of universe (smallest to grandest) is at a certain place. Just think about that moment with whole universe standing still. We agree that nothing can be changed in this moment. To change anything in this moment, we have to go back in past and that is impossible.
Laws of Nature are absolute. We can't change it.

Let us move to next moment. This next moment is result of every part of universe (smallest to grandest) in previous moment and Laws of nature controlling the outcome to this next moment.
We understand first discussed moment was unchangeable and Laws of Nature are absolute. How can we say this second moment could have possiblities of more than one?

I understand it is very hard to accept we don't have any choice. Some usual objections we would have in mind will be like--
"I am master of my will. How can anybody control it?"
or
"If nothing is in our control, how can we responsible for our actions?"
or
"Why one has to face hardship or painful experience, if one was not even responsible for it in first place?"
or
"If everything is pre-destined, should we stop doing any effort"
All the answers are in first part i.e. accepting His Hukam. But we will discuss more in detail.

lalihayer · #67 (**permalink**) 20-Dec-2008, 10:23 AM

Is there anything like Free will?

We will start again by looking at some hypothetical situations to better explain my point.

Quote:

An individual is born and bred in Nazi Germany during rise of Hitler. Like most of Germans he was born with superiority complex. Second factor added was atmosphere in Germany at that time. People were mesmerized with writings and lectures of Hitler. It made him even more convinced of his superior race. Then during first years of World War II, Germany came across quick victories. It made him more sure of his master race. So at any given time how can he exercises free will? Every thought of him was influenced by number of factors. Current atmosphere being the most dominating. He was believing every word Hitler said and was even ready to lay down his life for these principles. If free thought does exist, people in Nazi Germany and people in present Germany would have same thoughts. But there is a big difference in opinions between 1940's German and 2005's German.

Quote:

A recent skilled immigrant from Cuba in Canada got a well paid job in Montreal. He is very atheist by nature. Every morning he leave for job and see a big church on his way. Daily he reads messages like 'Come To Jesus' on the billboard outside church. He just laughs it out. As he is making good money, soon he buys a big house and moves in it along with his family. Things are very rosy and then at once he gets notice from his job that employers are laying off whole shift due to shortage of new orders. His beautiful world starts to collapse. He starts sending his resumes everywhere in panic. His monthly expenses are so big he can't simply even afford a day off from work. Tensions starts to going up. Another thing happen is his loving son fell sick with high fever and he has to take him hospital for immediate testings. His heart is pumping. He is losing almost everything at once. He has no force on the things happening around him.

Next day in stress, he is again driving to work and see a new message 'Jesus Is Solution To All Your Problems'. He stops his car and goes in. He prays in front of idol of Jesus for saving him from mounting problems. When he reaches his management informs him that they got a new order from Europe and he will get a promotion. Immediately he receives a phone call from his doctor that his son in well now and he had a minor infection only. This Cuban immigrant is a devout christian for life now. Do you think he has independent decision converting to Christianity? Did his problems disappear because he prayed? His son has a minor infection even before he prayed in church. Orders from Europe were well on way even before he went to pray. But prevailing conditions turns him into a christian. Free thinking does not make him a christian but his inability to stand pressure sure does.

Quote:

A girl is born to a white farmer in Texas. She finished her school in small Texas town. In her school, she had some Mexican friends. Her parents did not really like it but never said a word to her. After finishing she got admission in a university in New York. In New York, she met a black gentleman and she fell in love with him immediately. They went out for few months and then they got married in local Registrar office. She informed her parents about the marriage. Parents were never comfortable their daughter marrying a black guy, but they can't stop it from happening. Do we think it could have happened 100 years back in Texas? Crowd would have lynched black guy over even looking at white girl. They got the same genetics as 100 years back. So why different decision is OK now? Reason is simple. No decision is independent. It is decided by factors surrounding it. A white guy will be thinking twice before voting for black president in 2008. Maybe in next 50 years, he won't even notice it. Or opposite could happen. We simply don't know. What I am trying to say here is that individual view will be decided by factors surrounding situation at that time. Again no free thought.

Quote:

A boy is born to parents of Pakistani origin in UK. Even though parents are not very religious, they kept on taking boy to local mosque every evening without missing even once in boy's whole childhood and teenage years. With Indian genetics, prevailing racism in UK and continuous Koranic teachings by ultra Conservative imams turned this innocent little boy to a British born fanatic Muslim who hates every non-Muslim and believe every word his religious book says. If same boy was born in Pakistan, even with same amount feeding of Koranic lessons, he would never become as fanatic as he had become in UK. Missing factors would be racism, identity crisis and maybe some other mild ones. How can he exercise free will here? He looks at every situation through eyes of Koran. Then he tries to remember what his prophet would have done in this situation. He interpret multi meaning Arabic words from Koran to convince his mind that Koran is best science book in world and has every modern invention mentioned in it. His mind never let him think that why new inventions are not coming out of it and he is able to interpret old discoveries only? He uses all his brain power to prove his book right, he can never use his brain to decide what is right. He can never think outside his views. And you know, in reality nobody can.
Every decision he takes is influenced by current situation, his ultra-conservative upbringing, his Indo-Arab bloodline and many other unknown factors. He could never take a independent decision.

If we humans have choice of free will, why over 95% of people stay in same religion they are born in? Reason, they get influenced by environment they live in and take decisions accordingly. No individual is able to change future with decision made by itself. Shakespeare said it well in As You Like It, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players." We play our parts without choice and perish.

No thought in world is random or independent in nature. There is multitude of known or unknown factors affecting individual mind like genetics, upbringing environment and number of series of events going in his brain like chemical reactions, brain structure changes, eating and drinking habits etc. If we are able to take into account all the events, then there is only one decision possible to be made by brain of any individual with no alternative ever.

pk70 · #68 (**permalink**) 20-Dec-2008, 10:37 AM

No thought in world is random or independent in nature. There is multitude of known or unknown factors affecting individual mind like genetics, upbringing environment and number of series of events going in his brain like chemical reactions, brain structure changes, eating and drinking habits etc. If we are able to take into account all the events, then there is only one decision possible to be made by brain of any individual with no alternative ever.(quote lalihayer Ji)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626
That alone is enough to understand the ultimate Hukam prevailing not only on us but through the universes." HUKAM n kiha jaaee" hint is enough for a follower of Guru Nanak as inter -relation between all work directly or indirectly and are effective to and from all sides.

lalihayer · #69 (**permalink**) 20-Dec-2008, 10:40 AM

We do have illusion of free will. On our level we think, we are free to do whatever we want. There is another theory given by a proponent of free will,

"Suppose two men before a chessboard,--the one a novice, the other an expert player of the game. The expert intends to beat. But he cannot foresee exactly what any one actual move of his adversary may be. He knows, however, all the possible moves of the latter; and he knows in advance how to meet each of them by a move of his own which leads in the direction of victory. And the victory infallibly arrives, after no matter how devious a course, in the one predestined form of check-mate to the novice's king.

Let now the novice stand for us finite free agents, and the expert for the infinite mind in which the universe lies. Suppose the latter to be thinking out his universe before he actually creates it. Suppose him to say, I will lead things to a certain end, but I will not now decide on all the steps thereto. At various points, ambiguous possibilities shall be left open, either of which, at a given instant, may become actual. But whichever branch of these bifurcations becomes real, I know what I shall do at the next bifurcation to keep things from drifting away from the final result I intend."

The creator's plan of the universe would thus be left blank as to many of its actual details, but all possibilities would be marked down. The realization of some of these would be left absolutely to chance; that is, would only be determined when the moments of realization came. Other possibilities would be contingently determined; that is, their decision would have to wait till it was seen how the matters of absolute chance fell out. But the rest of the plan, including its final upshot, would be rigorously determined once for all. So the creator himself would not need to know all the details of actuality until they came; and at any time his own view of the world would be a view partly of facts and partly of possibilities, exactly as ours is now. Of one thing, however, he might be certain; and that is that his world was safe, and that no matter how much of it might zigzag he could surely bring it home at last."

I don't have to give that long clarification for this argument. We are talking about Creator Lord here. He caused first action. He created laws of nature. He must realize from first event to last event, what will happen? A car engineer knows everything about car, how it will behave, how it will run, what are the specifications. A machine designer prepares proofs for his machine and knows all the details of his machine parts, metals used, behaviour of metal parts under different temperatures, pressures and almost most of the conditions.
We are talking about Creator here. He is not bound in laws of nature as we are. He created everything including matter, time, space, laws of nature and all we see or unable to see. How can we think of him as a master chess player who plays good chess but does not know all the details going in his opponent's mind? If William James compares Lord to a master chess player, then for sure he must be talking about some lesser God. Creator God must be above both these players and had it planned how both of these players, master and novice, will behave in each and every condition and fate planned by Him must be fix and absolute with no other alternative.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626

Let us take a look at making of any decision by human mind. There are three factors to decide the outcome. Biology, genetics and socialization. First factor load the gun, second aim it and third factor shoots it. Biology is beyond our control. Genetics are determined by biology of our body. So genetics too are out of our reach. Third factors is socialization, which is result of sequence of events set in motion much before our birth. How can we even think to change it? With all three factors absolute and out of our control, how can our decision be independent or free? It can't be.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626
Khalsa ji, let us do veechar. Understanding 'Hukam' is very important. If we 'understand' it, only then we can accept it. I would appreciate your comments.

Archived_Member5 · #70 (**permalink**) 20-Dec-2008, 15:06 PM

[quote=lalihayer;91193]

Is there anything like Free will?

We will start again by looking at some hypothetical situations to better explain my point.
If we humans have choice of free will, why over 95% of people stay in same religion they are born in? Reason, they get influenced by environment they live in and take decisions accordingly. No individual is able to change future with decision made by itself. Shakespeare said it well in As You Like It, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players." We play our parts without choice and perish.

It is a matter of fidelity than of free will or choice. Scholars and seekers of truth will each tell of all religions being paths to man conquering his mind, and gaining spiritual liberation from the prevailing forces rousing and casting him to the wind. Fidelity is growing with ones religion, what may seem unfounded, with maturity, a greater sense of intellectual integrity becomes as a pure truth. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism are the world major religions. The Prophets of each determined mans need for faith and understanding, battle hate and sin and be free in thinking, action and spirit. Mankind can attain this state of spiritual sahej only when he detached, frees himself from the fear, hate and ignorance, greed, need and false necessity inclining him to run with the herd and efface his spiritual tendency for immediate needs, a need or desire he knows not what is generated by. Man know thineself for it is only when you comprehend the will that casts you as its slave that you will see the enemy lurking is within you. Fidelity to ones faith requires dedicated devotion, understanding and a resistance of popularised current market trends taking the masses in a particular direction. All religious tenets and fundaments are correct, it s man that distorts to mislead to his own purpose usually born of a fear, need or personal wrathfulness.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626

What is free will - Free will is being governed by the will of reason, love and peace. Reason is truth, the word. Faith in the word, until or understanding is gained. If people thought consciously of the cause and consequence of their actions, thoughts and intentions they would then have free will. To determine one’s own path without genetic hereditary patterns misleading blindly, overcoming the debris of fear and hate in embedded behavioural patterns programmed into the subconscious, unknown consciously to his own mind. To know oneself is to be free willed, free thinking, free in Spirit ...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626

Archived_Member5 · #71 (**permalink**) 25-Dec-2008, 22:22 PM

The butterfly effect, the actions of one butterfly initiates a cyclical reaction, a pattern of behaviour, how bizarre does this sound. The catalyst was the oracle of reason and wisdom, how did it arise that the unconscious reaction of a butterfly can cause earth moving reverberations. What is a catalyst, what are the forces and factors creating a cataclysmic effect on the environment and atmosphere. All influential individuals with a degree of attention are able to motivate, inspire, generate a surge of emotion and change the course of history. Many impediments are implemented to allay any such one force having such a causal effect.

It is said and true God look upon the world at any time when thus inclined and reacts according to what he observes. Imagine he in passing observes a foul natured atheists lambasting against the existence of such a supernal father. The great power of God would react in kind and much hate be manifest upon innocents for the actions of one. Imagine one terrorist committing an assault against a nation he feels invades, besieges, and seeks to undermine his motherland. He takes action, many bombs are places and many lives taken. Thereafter all his brothers and race are known by his action and judgment. Life is such. All are ambassadors of their nation, religion and creed.

Indeed environmental factors and peer pressure colour a man’s thinking and judgment. The purpose of bani or scriptures is to retain truth and reason over mind, matter and social trends. Man is as immaculate as is creator. To consider oneself less than ideal and place oneself in the gathering of the good is a contradiction of terms, a misplaced humility and course of action. Humility teaches man that until he knows himself he knows nothing. To know oneself is to be free. It is therefore mortals enchained and enslaved that voice loudly what others intuit subconsciously.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23626

Sainty Ji, you are a respected and much loved contributor here. Intellectual purity and spiritual peace will gain you the greatness inherent in your words and actions. Silence is preferable to speaking biased and angry words in reaction to perceived misjudgements. Here is wishing the Jesus Christ a happy birthday. A fellow brother of Nanak Ji amongst the sons of the Almighty Creator.

Narayanjot Kaur · #72 (**permalink**) 26-Dec-2008, 00:38 AM

Guess I have to move things now. I really dislike this part of being a leader. Truly I do. We try to put a cap on things so they do not get out of control. We do not like to meddle with the expression of opinion by members of SPN.

But in the end we have to be judge, jury and executioner. Geez!