A Thought on Possible Contradictions Relating to the 5 K's and Amrit

I come from a gur-sikh family and when I was little my grandpa would read stories to me about the teachings, practices and lives of the Gurus. Growing up however I started becoming less and less religious; although, I think I have a considerable amount of knowledge pretaining to sikhism and other relegions. Despite the fact I think I "know" a lot about these relegions, I cant help but waiver between being agnostic and athiest (lol, this has a lot to do with me taking science courses cuz my punjabi family wants me to become a doctor, so typical huh?). I know there's no real contradiction between sikhism and science but I think that there are some contradictions between the teachings, practices and lives of the gurus. For my example, I will cite from "SikhiWiki" which is a wikipedia like site dedicated to information on sikhism.

Example 1:

This is an anecdote from the early life of Guru Nanak Dev Ji

"Guru Nanak from an early age evidenced a questioning and enquiring mind. He soon mastered the Vedas and Sanskrit and was enrolled into a madrassa to study Persian and Arabic. Picking up both languages quickly, he surprised his teacher by composing an acrostic on the Persian language. When it was time for Nanak to be invested with the twice born thread the “sacred” thread, called the Janeu, he refused to take part in the ritual. When the priest continued to insist that the young Nanak done the string he went into a trance and sang: Let mercy be the cotton, contentment the thread, Continence the knot and truth the twist. Oh priest! if you have such a thread, Do give it to me. It will not wear out, nor get soiled, nor be burnt, nor lost. Says Nanak, blessed are those who go about wearing such a thread." So basically, a young Nanak rejected the ritual thread of the Hindu priest and justified it by suggesting that a simple piece of thread cannot make you a true Hindu, it's almost "for show" instead a true Hindu or any "good person" in the eyes of god has all the good attributes within them (this is the interpretation I was told from my grandfather).

Now if you fast forward to the time of the Tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, becoming a true Sikh would require one to take amrit and keep the 5 K's, even though amrit in sikhism is symbolic for something that lays within you by the grace of god. Can it not be argued that the same thread Guru Nanak rejected was symbolic of the same idea? If in fact a piece of thread cannot make you a true hindu then surely Amrit and the 5 K's alone cannot make you a true sikh, but my question is whether or not they are even needed to be on the path toward God. If what is important is that which lies within you, then the external acts of drinking amrit and keeping the 5 K's are trivial? Can one reject amrit and the 5 K's for the same reason Guru Nanak rejected the thread? The priest in the story told Guru Nanak that a person would not be considered religous without this thread, and let's face it, Sikh's arent considered "relegious" unless they are amrit-shuk and display the 5 K's, yet Guru Nanak still rejected the ritual and Guru Gobind created a ritual. I view this as a contradictory practice. This also leads me to another example

Example 2

For this example ill paraphrase, if you actually want to read the evidence i suggest you google it (lol) but im sure this is common knowledge to most of you. One of Guru Nanak's contribution to the world was the idea of a "Universal Message" that did not only apply to Hindu's but to Muslims as well and others too. When asked if he was either a Muslim or a Hindu he replied by saying "Neither" or by saying "both" and even as a baby, when a muslim priest visited his house and presented him with a jug of water (symbolizing islam) and a jug of milk (symbolizing hinduism) to see which one he would place his hand in, he put his hands in both. Having said this, if, hypothetically, guru nanak was alive today and someone were to ask him if he was a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh... would Guru Nanak still say he isnt any one of them? or all of them? I am aware our relegion does not suggest a muslim or hindu cannot achieve oneness with god, instead it suggests that anyone can do it, but I am afraid that by the simply creating "sikhism" this alienates alot of people. Personally im inclined to believe sikhism is more a way of life like Buddhism then a relegion in the same vein as Islam, Christianity or Hinduism but if a muslim can reach god and so can a hindu then of what importance are the 5 K's. If simply being the best person you can be, believing in god, and praying is enough then what purpose do the 5 K's have and Is that purpose ultimately trivial?

Anyways, im just trying to expand my knowledge so im lookin forward to reading replies from a different perspective as mine. Ive thought bout this issue alot so i even have my own answer for it, but it doesnt satisfy me so im hopin you guys can explain this matter to me :P.
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Read More:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23329 (A Thought on Possible Contradictions Relating to the 5 K's and Amrit)


- Gurinder

Gurfateh

It is an eye opeining message so das thanks you.

Das was a Hindu and then became the Sikh.

So here goes the explation by very of Akal.

First Master did not oppose Hinduism (soory Sanatan Dharma) nor Islam.He went to court of Akal Via river vein.Akal told him that there is no Hindu nor any Muslim as Creator by self is free from Faith.

So First Master gave message of sprituality.Which takes us above barriers of fundmentalism of religeon.He preached faith to Yogis,Vaishnavs and Muslims.From the people preached by him.Some wanted to be like Him.So they became Gursikh.

We as a Sikh enjoy the status of Guru.First Master did bow to his successpr the second Master.

Being a Sikh one does not gives up old faith of So called Hinduism or Islam but after becoming one ,one becomes true to his/her faith.A true Sikh is true Hindu/Muslim/Christian while being a true Sikh.Like all river converges to sea,Ultimate truth of all faiths at present comes to us ultimatly.
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So it was only during the time of Ninth Master when King Aurang Zeb Ji treied to make two faiths(so called Hindus and Muslims) as one(Muslims).Akal created the Third(Panth Khalsa).
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So our five kes are further forwarding of Janeu and Shara.They are the similar symbols.

We have Gatras like Janeu.There is a Sakhi that Tenth Master told potnetial converts to remove Janeu and put them on tree.Thoses trees were to be reborn a Humans.So as per Sau Sakhi,Janeu were not irrelevents.

Guru only tells that outword Janeu without feeling attached to it are worthless.Same applies to our 5ks.Unlike Janueu which lower caste(Sudara),Apostates(Vrta),Outcaste(Chandalas), infidals(Malechas) along with ladies were not allowed to dawn.Any Human
can have Amrit and 5Ks.

There is stroy that Akal inform of Vishnu made Bhagat Ravidas Ji wear Janeu while he was a Chandal.But main thing was to have a feeling of qulties before wearing Janeu and then outword symbols come as a proof.

So if we have all the true feelings of Singh,we will have 5ks in outward appearance and we will partake Amrit.What we have in mind should also be visible when it comes to faith.So Amrit is a result of mental state.Without mental state appropriate to faith is not there there is no use of Amrit,Sunnat or Janeu.

Akal Bless.

Okay, here's what I think:

The difference between wearing a janeau and taking amrit is simple.

Wearing the janeau is supposed to "purify" you and give you a spiritual rebirth. Guru Nanak Dev Ji said however, that he had seen men that wore a janeau but they still lied, still cheated, still stole form others and bascially lived the lives of sinners. He said that the simple act of wearing a cotton thread wouldn't purify his soul. He wanted somehing stronger, something that would actually work. But this doesn't mean that the janeau was totally useless. If you were a devout Hindu and you had the nessesary faith and love for God then it would work because you had the most crucial part: FAITH.
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By the time Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born however, people had turned the janeau into a mindless ritual. They believed that it would purify thier souls and save them without any work on thier part. THIS was why Guru Nanak Dev Ji wouldn't put on the janeau. He didn't want something that was only symbolic of his faith, he wanted something stronger, something that would further help his soul.

Taking amrit is different because you do not take amrit and then suddenly your soul is saved. No. It does not work that way. You have to WORK to keep your amrit. Taking amrit helps you actually physically cut back on the sins you commit everyday.

For example: When you take amrit you are forbidden from smoking or drinking. These two things are sins because of thier addiction. When you smoke or drinking pretty soon you get addcited to it and then that's all you can think about. Amrit saves you from this because even if you are tempted you know you can not drink it otherwise you will break your amrit. This also goes for eating meat. Some people may argue that we need meat to live. Well, in some cases that was or is true. For example, when humans used to live in the wild we had to hunt other animals to live. We had no other choice. Or in places like Africa, sometimes poeple are so poor that they MUST eat animals because they are the most easily accessible thing. BUT in rich countries like Canada or the U.S or Britian, we can afford to get other foods and NOT eat meat. EATING MEAT JUST BECAUSE YOUR TONGUE LIKES THE TASTE IS A SIN! It is murder. Amrit stops you from this too because meat eating is also a kind of addiction and it HURTS living creatures CREATED by God. Another thing is hair cutting (WHY do you bother cutting your hair? Who the hell are you trying to please? The world? Cause guess what buddy, the world will always hate you. There is no need to cut your hair! It's a gift from God and it is a PART of you. If you can cut your hair then why not your finger? Cause it doesn't hurt?). By taking amrit you are also prevented from committing adultry. (Admit it, adultry is just WRONG)
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See all the things taking amrit prevents you from doing? All the potential mistakes that could ruin you life? Also when you take amrit you are slowly improving your self and instilling good virtues into your life. More example of this can be found at: SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge

Also when you take amrit you have to read 7 baania. (5 in the morning, 1 in the afternoon and 1 at night) And even if you don't understand them, they WILL have an effect on you. No matter how small. It's like butter in a container. You can take the butter out, but some of it will still be stuck to the container.

So basically, amrit actually physically helps you to live a better life. It's not just symbolic like the janeau.

Hope this helps

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru jee kee fateh

First of all id like to thank you for your take on this issue, very insightful. However...

One of your quotes intrigued me, "If you can cut your hair, why not your finger? Cuz it hurts?" it reminded me of something someone said to me when I was little. Upon being asked why I was keeping my hair by a 6 year old christian friend (I was around 6 too) I replied by saying exactly what you said. Something along the lines of "Because it is god's gift to us" etc. The boy replied by saying "Then why do you cut your fingernails? Didn't god give you those?" lol only childern can think of sumtin like that to say, but i didnt really have anytin to say back to that... i'd like to see if you could give me a worthy reply to a childish question thats stuck with me for so long :p

The above question was directed "amritdhri_grl" but if anyone else wants to answer please go ahead.

by the way, Kiram, thank you for the video, it was very insightful and basically told me exactly wat i was thinking to myself. I would like to confirm with you however what he was basically saying was "the rules that Guru Gobind Singh Ji provided, once followed, can garentee the outcome 100 percent, but if not followed exactly (ie how Christians follow ther rules or Muslims follow thers) then the outcome may or may not be the same depending on how those muslims or christians lived?" once again, appreciate the video.

Caspian ji,

The saakhi told in the video very beautifully portrays the essence, the beauty of a Sikh's life, that is enriched when one lives the life that Guru ji portrayed.
Read More:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23329 (A Thought on Possible Contradictions Relating to the 5 K's and Amrit)
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Like Sada SatSimran Singh ji says, it is all about "Experiencing that guarantee" .

Chardikala !!

Here's what I would have said back to the child:
reproduced here from Hair and General Sikh Philosophy.

Lol nice. No, that is a good question though. Here's my answer:

Growing our hair doesn't affect how live. We can live normally and do normal things and look good with long hair. Keeping hair long doesn't affect how you eat, or how you can do certain things or whatever. Also, if your doing a certain job that requires hair that is short so it won't get in the way, then let my tell you about a wonderful little invention called rubber bands.

Nails are different however. Have you seen pictures in the guiness book of world records of the male and female with the worlds longest nails? If you haven't I suggest you go look it up, because holy cow, those things are HUGE! Having nails like that would make it almost impossible to do ANYTHING! You couldn't eat (you'd have to bacially use you nails like forks), sleeping would be harder, imagine going to the BATHROOM with nails that long, and you'd always be in danger of killing yourself with your nails or popping someone's eyes tou because in case you haven't noticed, as nails get LONGER they get HARDER. Plus you can only begin to image how many different diseases you'd pick up because of your nails. Gross.

It would make living impossible. So we have to trim our nails to keep them under control because like BhagatSingh said above, we just don't need huge nails in today's society.I'm sure God understands.

But there' no need to cut our hair.

Here are the pictures of those two people I mentioned above:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1827/4548gn4.jpg

http://www.recordholders.org/images/laengste/nails.jpg

Caspian ji

To answer your question, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji was speaking to Sikhs. For the Sikhs follow their Guru. Anyone that wants to be a Sikh must follow the Guru. Muslims follow the Koran and Christains follow the Bible. Just like in the video the Khalsa Panth if followed by the way Guru ji says there is a 100% gurantee and otherwise for a Sikh the outcome may or may not be the same. Also your remark on saying I am an agnostic or atheist is against Sikhi. The first Shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji are, One Universal Creator God. What other proof does one need? A Sikh must have faith in their Guru otherwise one is lossed in his own mind. Agnostic deny that one cannot prove that God exist, so they infact are rejecting the first shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Then atheist deny there is a God and this is also rejecting the first shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. A Sikh does not reject any bani written by the Gurus no matter what. To ask question about Gurbani is one thing but to challenge Gurbani is completely a selfish act and there will be consequences for it.