The Gursikh Project on Reincarnation!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Khalsa Ji, I see this forum full of intellectual Gursikhs and I would like to use this opportunity to discuss and in effect gain knowledge through Gurbani. Specifically, I would like that all of us collaborate together with a commitment to finish the project. The project is on the topic of REINCARNATION on the bases of other related theories like KARMA, HELL/HEAVEN, (ANY ADDITIONIONAL YOU CAN COME UP WITH). I have already gone through the old threads on this topic and realized that there was no conclusion reached. Certainly, it should not to be so for this thread. The whole point of this thread is to reach a conclusion that would benefit not only us, but all others as well. Therefore, we should be constructive toward our goal throughout the project. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM BASING A CLAIM ON FAITH (Faith simply put, is dependent on knowledge. For example, if I ask you for 1 grand you would think more deeply before handing it over, whereas if it was your father you would care more/less based on the prior knowledge and therefore have relative faith.)
We will complete this project in Stage wise manner

1. Commit yourself to this project.
   1. Your Name/ID
   2. Expertise in studies
      1. Specific subjects that you have good knowledge on
         1. Chemistry….
         2. Philosophy…
   3. Decide the limit on time for before starting each step
      1. 7 days for step ONE (preliminary decision – open for suggestions)
         1. Can break down each step further for time limit.
   4. Last two days should always be used to conclude with a precise result of each step.
2. Come up with a precise definition of each of the theories we want to discuss.
   1. This definition should not base on Gurbani, but on the basis of outside sources that a normal person would get. E.g. Dictionaries ….
      1. There is a common perception that a new person to this theory would have based on common sources like dictionaries
      2. Also, we should define each theory precisely.
         Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/23292-the-gursikh-project-on-reincarnation.html
         1. E.g. does reincarnation theory include both non-living and living or just one of these? (More important questions are welcomed and needed)
3. Compare these theories with common scientific knowledge.
   1. The point here is not that science IS better than Gurbani, please do not take it as such.
      1. Actually, we could use the known knowledge to support our Gurbani for newcomers to Sikhi.
      2. Even if scientific knowledge is in contrast, that would mean there “could” something word in our interpretation of Gurbani in the fourth step.
      3. Certainly scientific theories can be wrong, but there are some old and established theories that are now regarded as facts, therefore science is not always wrong/bad.
4. Read Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, starting from page one.
   1. We should choose those verses that are related to topic or provide insight into it.
   2. Comparison of our definition of the theories with Gurbani is the point of this thread.
5. Conclude precisely.
   1. Is the definition same as in Gurbani.
      1. If not then our Gurbani’s theory should be named differently
      2. ……..

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

 
Do share your immediate thoughts or reactions on this issue? We value your views! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views with us.. Gurfateh!

Step ONE :Your Name/ID Expertise in studiesDecide the limit on time for Step One ans Two7 days for step ONE (preliminary decision – open for suggestions)

ax0547 ji

It is commendable that you want to look at reincarnation in a systematic way. And, yes, frustrating when conversations ramble and wind and get off topic never to reach closure. However that is the nature of an Internet forum.

Personally, I will participate in this discussion -- it is of great interest to me. And to the extent possible will try to follow your format.

However, one or two things I need to point out as mod/leader.

It is impossible to ask forum members to stay within your guidelines. There are no forum rules to require them to do that. Let's see how far we get with the discussion. If people get off topic then one or other of the mod/leaders will bring the discussion back on track and not let it wander.

Some people may want to speak to one or more of the points in your outline but not the entire outline. So let's let them do that. The forum has to permit some freedom of choice as we are not in a classroom with assignments but we are learners who devote what time we have.

And Last, sometime people are reluctant to use their real names or to identify themselves speicifically f or good reasons -- the state of the world, Internet stalking, identity theft, etc. So forum members need to decide whether to identify themselves. Leave it up to them.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23292

Having said all of this. Thanks so much for this great project.

That would be a great help to keep the project on route. Also I would hope poeple are educated enough to follow the path that we won't have to reroute. On the other hand I want input from all of you to change and make the guidleines better - its a collaborative project. Also no need for real name ( certainy mine is not) It is just to identify people who want to participate from start to end, so that others may wait in the required time before moving onto next step.I am crossing my fingers so that people come in join in this project!

Ji

Thanks for taking my suggestions in good humor. Right now I have the flu and can barely see the computer screen. Only short trips to the forum can I do. Later tonight I will help by writing something and also pm some members who have written a lot about this topic so that they take a look and offer what they can. It should be a good thread.

axji

To start the discussion, I would like to begin with this part of a shabad from Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. Then attempt some of your other questions.


ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਦੀ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23292
chouthhai peharai rain kai vanajaariaa mithraa har chalan vaelaa aadhee ||
In the fourth watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the Lord announces the time of departure.

ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਸਭ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਦੀ ॥
kar saevahu pooraa sathiguroo vanajaariaa mithraa sabh chalee rain vihaadhee ||
Serve the Perfect True Guru, O my merchant friend; your entire life-night is passing away.


ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਢਿਲ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਵਹੁ ॥
har saevahu khin khin dtil mool n karihu jith asathhir jug jug hovahu ||
Serve the Lord each and every instant-do not delay! You shall become eternal throughout the ages.


ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਦ ਮਾਣਹੁ ਰਲੀਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਖੋਵਹੁ ॥
har saethee sadh maanahu raleeaa janam maran dhukh khovahu ||
Enjoy ecstasy forever with the Lord, and do away with the pains of birth and death.


ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥
gur sathigur suaamee bhaedh n jaanahu jith mil har bhagath sukhaandhee ||
Know that there is no difference between the Guru, the True Guru, and your Lord and Master. Meeting with Him, take pleasure in the Lord's devotional service.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਸਫਲਿਓ*ੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਦੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥
kahu naanak praanee chouthhai peharai safalio rain bhagathaa dhee ||4||1||3||
Says Nanak, O mortal, in the fourth watch of the night, the life-night of the devotee is fruitful. ||4||1||3||

This lyrical passage from the Guru is in SriRaag on Ang 77. It is part of a longer shabad that takes us through understanding the 4 watches of the night (each watch 3 hours of darkness). I am starting with the last, and the 4th watch, for a reason. It is important to keep the end in mind. Everything else leads up to the end, in one's earthly existence and in one's spiritual path.

One can read this shabad at the literal level and understand it as the passage of the soul at the end of lfe. What happens after one dies? Or one can read it as a spiritual statement of how the end of the false self transpires and what happens then. Nanak says -- then the life-night of the devotee is fruitful. I take this to mean that the inner light is born in the deepest darkness, when the consciousness of ego falls away.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23292

You asked about my expertise. I have none in this area other than continual reading of Guruji and consultation with as many of those Sikhs who share their understanding.

Reincarnation refers to the passage of the soul from one stage of being to the next. This in the vedantic traditions most typically refers to the return of the soul to earthly existence in the bodily form of a new life. The soul of the departed returns to live in the shell of another person.

When one has not traded with the True Merchant and has not enshrined the light of His Name within one's heart -- then one is not freed from the cycle of life and death.

But think also of the shabad above. The death of the self, of the false self, of Haumei, also results in reincarnation, rebirth, and the soul inhabits the heart and the person is renewed. There is a new connection.

Reincarnation is a difficult subject and in my humble opinion simplistic approaches to its meaning only lead to a narrow understanding of the Guru. I have much more work to do.

These are some of the common encyclopedias that people use to find the definition of Reincarnation!

According to Wikipedia.com

Reincarnation, literally "to be made flesh again", is a doctrine or

metaphysical

Metaphysics

belief that some essential part of a living being (in some variations only

human beings

Human_being

) survives

death

Death

to be reborn in a new body. This essential part is often referred to as the

spirit

Spirit

or

soul

Soul

, the "higher" or "true" self, "divine spark", or "I". According to such beliefs, a new personality is developed during each life in the physical

world

World

, but some part of the self remains constant throughout the successive lives.[1]
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23292
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: reincarnation
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23292

Doctrine of the rebirth of the soul in one or more successive existences, which may be human, animal, or vegetable. Belief in reincarnation is characteristic of Asian religions, especially Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism. All hold to the doctrine of karma, the belief that actions in this life will have their effect in the next. In Hinduism, a person may be freed from the cycle of birth and rebirth only by reaching a state of enlightenment. Likewise in Buddhism, discipline and meditation may enable a seeker to reach nirvana and escape the wheel of birth and rebirth. Manichaeism and Gnosticism accepted the concept of reincarnation, as do such modern spiritual movements as Theosophy.

Buddhism Dictionary: reincarnation
Term generally avoided by writers on Buddhism since it implies the existence of an immortal soul (ātman) that is periodically incarnated in a fleshly host, a notion more proper to Hinduism. By contrast, Buddhism denies the existence of an immortal soul and does not accept the dualistic opposition between spirit and matter it presupposes. Accordingly, the English term preferred by Buddhist writers to designate the dynamic and constantly changing continuity of the individual from one life to the next is ‘rebirth’. Neither this term nor ‘reincarnation’ has a direct Sanskrit equivalent, and Indian sources speak instead of ‘rebecoming’ (Sanskrit, punarbhava) or ‘repeated death’ (Sanskrit, punarmṛtyu).
Columbia Encyclopedia: reincarnation
(rē'ĭnkärnā'shən) [Lat.,=taking on flesh again], occupation by the soul of a new body after the death of the former body. Beliefs vary as to whether the soul assumes the new body immediately or only after an interval of disembodiment. Although some religions teach that it may inhabit a higher or lower form of life, most believe that the soul is consistently reincarnated in the same species. See transmigration of souls.

Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia: Reincarnation
The return to a new corporeal life of a soul (the incorporeal true self) that had previously been embodied and passed through bodily death. The idea of reincarnation—that the soul passes through a series of embodiments—stands in contrast to the dominant Western Christian idea of a single corporeal embodiment followed by resurrection (reunion of the soul with a spiritual body) and life with God in heaven. Reincarnation is often associated with, but is not necessarily connected with, transmigration, the idea that at death the soul might pass into the body of an animal, a plant, or even an inanimate object such as a stone. The belief in reincarnation was tied to moral categories in ancient religions, especially the Eastern concept of karma, which viewed the present life as the working out of consequences from previous lives. Future embodiments will also be determined by the consequences of this present life. One must remove oneself from the realm of consequences through spiritual activity or be stuck in the endless cycle of reincarnation forever. The belief in a form of reincarnation is fundamental to both Hinduism and Buddhism and had some popularity in the ancient Mediterranean basin. Pythagoras, for example, claimed that he was Euphorbus in a previous existence. In modern times, reincarnation has spread in the West through the efforts of French Spiritism and Theosophy.

According to Wikipedia.com

Reincarnation, literally "to be made flesh again", is a doctrine or

metaphysical

Metaphysics

belief that some essential part of a living being (in some variations only

human beings

Human_being

) survives

death

Death

to be reborn in a new body. This essential part is often referred to as the

spirit

Spirit

or

soul

Soul

, the "higher" or "true" self, "divine spark", or "I". According to such beliefs, a new personality is developed during each life in the physical

world

World

, but some part of the self remains constant throughout the successive lives.[1]
According to this definition reincarnation as to have two parts -:
1. Be born as flesh again.
2. Soul, the “true self” is reborn into the flesh.
3. New personality, but some part of self remains constant.
Now being born as flesh is part of the definition itself, but could the constant part be the “true self” that remains true i.e. constant is to think about!
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: reincarnation

Doctrine of the rebirth of the soul in one or more successive existences, which may be human, animal, or vegetable. Belief in reincarnation is characteristic of Asian religions, especially Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism. All hold to the doctrine of karma, the belief that actions in this life will have their effect in the next. In Hinduism, a person may be freed from the cycle of birth and rebirth only by reaching a state of enlightenment. Likewise in Buddhism, discipline and meditation may enable a seeker to reach nirvana and escape the wheel of birth and rebirth. Manichaeism and Gnosticism accepted the concept of reincarnation, as do such modern spiritual movements as Theosophy.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23292
This definition explains that reincarnation is dependent on our Karma. This is how it is said in Sikhism too and that state of enlightenment is needed to get rid of it.
1. Karma, defection needed!
2. Enlightenment, definition needed!
Buddhism Dictionary: reincarnation
Term generally avoided by writers on Buddhism since it implies the existence of an immortal soul (ātman) that is periodically incarnated in a fleshly host, a notion more proper to Hinduism. By contrast, Buddhism denies the existence of an immortal soul and does not accept the dualistic opposition between spirit and matter it presupposes. Accordingly, the English term preferred by Buddhist writers to designate the dynamic and constantly changing continuity of the individual from one life to the next is ‘rebirth’. Neither this term nor ‘reincarnation’ has a direct Sanskrit equivalent, and Indian sources speak instead of ‘rebecoming’ (Sanskrit, punarbhava) or ‘repeated death’ (Sanskrit, punarmṛtyu).

Well this makes it clear that Buddhists think that soul is not immortal, and that matter and soul are not dualistic but different entities! A presupposition! And therefore reincarnation is not the best term for this! Acceptable.
Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia: Reincarnation
The return to a new corporeal life of a soul (the incorporeal true self) that had previously been embodied and passed through bodily death. The idea of reincarnation—that the soul passes through a series of embodiments—stands in contrast to the dominant Western Christian idea of a single corporeal embodiment followed by resurrection (reunion of the soul with a spiritual body) and life with God in heaven. Reincarnation is often associated with, but is not necessarily connected with, transmigration, the idea that at death the soul might pass into the body of an animal, a plant, or even an inanimate object such as a stone. The belief in reincarnation was tied to moral categories in ancient religions, especially the Eastern concept of karma, which viewed the present life as the working out of consequences from previous lives. Future embodiments will also be determined by the consequences of this present life. One must remove oneself from the realm of consequences through spiritual activity or be stuck in the endless cycle of reincarnation forever. The belief in a form of reincarnation is fundamental to both Hinduism and Buddhism and had some popularity in the ancient Mediterranean basin. Pythagoras, for example, claimed that he was Euphorbus in a previous existence. In modern times, reincarnation has spread in the West through the efforts of French Spiritism and Theosophy.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23292

Acoording to this -:
1. Karma plays a role possibly.
2. Could be animate, inanimate or plants.
3. Transmigrations, definition needed!

· 1. Be born as flesh again.
2.Soul, the “true self” is reborn into the flesh.
3.New personality, but some part of self remains constant.
· 1.Karma, defection needed!
2.Enlightenment, definition needed!
· 1.Karma plays a role possibly.
2.Could be animate, inanimate or plants.
3.Transmigrations, definition needed!
· Is soul Immoratal vs mortal and dualist vs non dualist?
This is my personal point of view, but soul when compared to present day definition of energy seems to be energy that our body holds and eats to have throughout life. Soul might not be just energy but includes it as there is very high probability that even energy has an underlying cause.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23292
Definition: Energy is the capacity of a physical system to perform work. Energy exists in several forms such as heat, kinetic or mechanical energy, light, potential energy, electrical, or other forms.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23292
According to the law of conservation of energy, the total energy of a system remains constant, though energy may transform into another form. Two billiard ***** colliding, for example, may come to rest, with the resulting energy becoming sound and perhaps a bit of heat at the point of collision.