Karma, Freewill & Hukam in Sikhism

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OR....also acceptable by me....

In My Humble Opinion....

Gyani jarnail Singh

 
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__________________
We hear with our ears but we listen with our minds.
Hearing the sound of a mantra is one thing - listening to it is another !

Thank you And Gyani ji ,Sir.
The vibes I get from this is very positive.You should be very holy personalities.

Regards.!!

Apologies for bumping an old thread, but this is a really amazing thread to read with some really inspiring paragraphs! I'd like to think I'm understanding, but I don't think I am. I'm still a tad confused about hukam.

Reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it seems to me that nothing can occur outside of Hukam. Therefore, no true "free will" exists (free will, ie, doing anything of your own volition, is an illusion). We all act as we are guided to act (see post #14 of this thread, on page 2, by Sikh80, for gurbani supporting this). Some will be drawn close, some driven further away.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/22289-karma-freewill-and-hukam-in-sikhism.html

If this is he case, why then are we instructed to follow Hukam, when we don't actually have a choice to follow it? Is it an instruction to accept the Hukam, rather than struggle against it? But if one was to struggle against it, wouldn't one be following Hukam anyway???

I also get mentally stuck trying to rationalise and justify the birth of a young girl (for example) in an impoverished country, who is cut up, and sold into prostitution before she's even 10, and her life is hell thenceforth. Is it Hukam that this should happen to her? Is it her karma? Is it the free will (if it exists) of others forcing her into this situation? This issue causes me great personal struggle, and perhaps it will diminish if I can better understand concepts like Hukam.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22289

Many thanks in advance to any who choose to reply.

Ishna

The more I read into the idea of Hukam and free-will, the more I detect a contradiction within Gurbani. I'm sure that is not the case and it is my understanding which is flawed. I would appreciate assistance with this problem if possible, please.

ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਮੰਨੈ ਓਹੁ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਮੁਠਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
Pūre gur kā hukam na mannai oh manmukẖ agi▫ān muṯẖā bikẖ mā▫i▫ā.
One who does not obey the Hukam, the Command of the Perfect Guru - that self-willed manmukh is plundered by his ignorance and poisoned by Maya. (P303)

ਜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਵੈ ॥
Jā ṯis bẖāvai ṯā hukam manāvai.
When it is pleasing to Him, then He inspires us to obey the Hukam of His Command. (P337)

ਮੰਨੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne hukam so pargat jā▫e.
One who obeys the Hukam of the Lord's Command, goes to Him openly.(P355)

ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਇਸੀ ॥
So sevak sevā kare jis no hukam manā▫isī.
That servant, whom the Lord causes to obey the Order of His Will, serves Him. (P471)

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਮੰਨਈ ਤਾ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22289
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22289
Nānak hukam na mann▫ī ṯā gẖar hī anḏar ḏūr.
O Nanak, if one does not obey the Hukam of the Lord's Command, then within one's own home, the Lord seems far away. (P510)

ਜਿਤੁ ਕੋ ਲਾਇਆ ਤਿਤ ਹੀ ਲਾਗਾ ਤੈਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥
Jiṯ ko lā▫i▫ā ṯiṯ hī lāgā ṯaise karam kamāvai.
He is attached to that, to which the Lord has attached him, and he acts accordingly. (P476... not one of my favourite pages...)

So which is is?? Sometimes it is written we can choose to follow the Hukam. Other times it is written that Waheguru directs us to follow the Hukam or not. My brain is going to explode soon!

Thanks for any assistance (if possible).

Ishna

It is good to bump up old threads that are worthy of reading! When interpreting shabads, it is good to try and look at the shabad as a whole. I'll do my best in sharing my understanding of the shabads pulled out with the help of Prof Sahib Singh's teeka:

Page 303
Whoever fights against hukam is following his own mind and becomes entrapped by the influences of maya. That person's head is full of lies. They accept lies as truth. S/he is stuck with useless arguments. S/he can talk in circles (make a fool of others) and make many attempts to earn dinner but no-one likes their false utterances. Like an abandoned woman he walks from one house to another. Whoever associates with him also becomes blemished.

Page 476
People who are ostentatious about their outward appearance to denote goodness (wear long dhotees and a janeu, wear a mala around their neck etc). Those people are not the men of God but are thugs of Benares. I do not like those people-they are not shy to take advantage of people for the sake of temptation. These people are obsessive about cleanliness of their pots and pans etc but they are crafty and eat the whole person (by exploitation-not literally). They wander around engrossed by themselves claiming they are pure and not touched by temptation. They are drowning in ego and are bringing down their companions too. He is following his path and acting accordingly. Those that find the true Guru (Waheguru) are liberated from the pain of rebirth (not the same as reincarnation).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22289
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22289

My understanding is that we should all try to follow a Gurmukh's path and connect with Waheguru but not everyone will be successful. However, this should not stop us from trying as both the trying and the success or lack of are hukam.

Hope that helps, Jasleen

This is an excellent thread and I couldn't resist myself from asking a question.

A gentleman mentioned that tales of child born with a missing leg is because of the past karma sounds nonsense to him.... Is it Hukam ? What is the reason then? Please help....

Gaganrayat ji,

Guru Fateh.

Hukum is an acceptance by us as human beings and also to moive on and strive in our lives. Nature is not perfect as we all know but Ik Ong Kaar is, and nature is part of The Source. So, some are born blind as it happened in my family and some with other deformities. Some are born with great talents in many fields in the same token.

Thanks to the openmindedness bred in us by the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, we can appreciate the technological marvels. We as Sikhs see this in a different manner than the other dogmatic Abrahamic religions are able to because for them, it all started with Adam & Eve hence the marvelous advancement in science like the artificial limbs created for our injured soldiers do not mean much.

**** Cheney is still alive today because of the portable pump. If we had not invented that, then he would have been long dead without the heart transplant.

So, for us all these advancements are part of the Hukum because the Hukum teaches us to strive to get better as beings as mentioned before.

Unfortunately, the Creationists who claim to come from Adam & Eve can not come to terms with this inner dilemma of theirs despite making the best use of science to better their lives.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejawant Singh Ji,

Thanks for the answer... I know about Abrahamic Religions but some of the said things were probably too technical for me.. I understand when you said that some are born with deformities(condolences) and some are very talented and we just have to move on. but is that because of something they did in their previous birth? and is it fair that someone faces the wrath of his/her actions from the past birth?

I am sorry if you had answered my question in the reply but please simplify it for me.

Regards,

Gagandeep Singh

Gagandepp Singh veer ji you might enjoy the following thread too,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interf...ism-sikhi.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22289
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22289

It was good and elaborate dialog at times a little cryptic. See if that clarifies or helps you ask other questions or thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.