Understanding Guru as per Granth Sahib

Sikh80 · #1 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2008, 11:41 AM

Respected pk70 ji,
SCANNED

We all interpret bani as per our understanding. But sometime we feel that we may not be correct and seek the help of others to resolve the issue. One of such issues for me is to understand Guru in terms of bani and Sikhism.

We have many kinds of references in The Granth Sahib:

True Guru
Sat Guru
Perfect Guru
Guru
Granth Sahib
Besides aad Guru, Jugaad guru, Sri Guru dev...etc

By default we are left with two meanings that we assign to the term.One may refer to the Primal Lord and other is the Granth sahib on the premise that bani is Nirankaar or it has been recommended so by the Tenth Master.

Let us look at following Line. I shall take up the English lines as it shall be helpful in making the point clear.

The Perfect Guru has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the True Lord.

This line contains perfect Guru and God and states that perfect Guru has saved us and I sought the sanctuary of Lord. This makes it clear that the implication is that Perfect Guru and the Lord should be two different entities.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/22261-understanding-guru-as-per-granth-sahib.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261

Who could be perfect Guru in the above lines.?

[As per that I understand perfect Guru and Lord should be the same but it is denied as per the above]

I shall post my doubts in this thread after you have replied to this.There would be more than 100 tuk's where the term Guru/satguru and GOd have appeared in a single line. Obviously I cannot assign the same meaning to the different terms employed in bani.
I had to restart this thread to understand if there is some standardization of the usage of the terms in the Bani.

warm Regards

Sikh80 · #2 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2008, 19:56 PM

I quote below the Mool Mantra that gives the attributes of the almighty. Besides other attributes 'saibhung' and Akal are some of the important attributes. I am satisfied with the definition or the description of the God in attributes for.

Let us begin from Mool Mantra that is given below. I shall be giving the doubts again in this thread where I feel more comfortable for very obvious reasons.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261
<> siq nwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gur pRswid ]

vwihgurU kyvl iek hY[ s`cw hY aus dw nwm, rcnhwr aus dI ivAkqI Aqy Amr aus dw srUp[ auh infr, kInw-rihq, Ajnmw qy svY-pRkwSvwn hY[ gurW dI dXw duAwrw auh prwpq huMdw hY[
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261
There is but one God. True is His Name, creative His personality and immortal His form. He is without fear sans enmity, unborn and self-illumined. By the Guru's grace He is obtained.

Forgive me please.

Sikh80 · #3 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2008, 21:36 PM

The above Mool -Mantra is the first entry of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and is from the bani of Guru Nanak dev ji [First nanak]. It was authored by Guru Nanak so that all the sikhs form a common basis of understanding the lord , the Creator; the Almighty. He has given the bare minimal attributes of the Lord so that the concept of God in the masses can be spread with ease.

One can find other attrubutes from the bani.

Guru Nanak never claimed that he himself is/was a God. Sikh philosophy rejects the appearance of God in the human garb. Infact, this is one of the major characteristics that separates sikhism from the other eastern religions like Hinduism in which it is believed that God can take the human format and can be on the earth through the route of womb.

Sikhism does not believe in this and rejects this claim that God can take the Birth. Any one who tries to present this kind of message is not doing any service to Sikhism.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261

Narayanjot Kaur · #4 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2008, 21:38 PM

Sikh80 ji

You are proving that this topic is open to endless discussion and numerous ways of defining the topic. I really like the direction you have taken in this thread. It is completely novel.

Sikh80 · #5 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2008, 22:06 PM

AwpIn@Y Awpu swijEnu Awpy hI QMim@ KloAw ] (968-14, rwmklI, blvMif qy sqw)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261
He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.

Honey22 · #6 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2008, 22:17 PM

Sikh 80 Ji, philosophy stated in your above post crashes down in a second, infront of Gurbani

-the Ultimate Truth. Thanks for the endevour.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
maerai man maerai man sathigur preeth lagaaee raam ||
My mind, my mind - the True Guru has blessed it with the Lord's Love.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
har har har har naam maerai mann vasaaee raam ||
He has enshrined the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har, Har, within my mind.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਈ ਸਭਿ ਦੂਖ ਵਿਸਾਰਣਹਾਰਾ ॥
har har naam maerai mann vasaaee sabh dhookh visaaranehaaraa ||
The Name of the Lord, Har, Har, dwells within my mind; He is the Destroyer of all pain.
ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥
vaddabhaagee gur dharasan paaeiaa dhhan dhhan sathiguroo hamaaraa ||
By great good fortune, I have obtained the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan; blessed, blessed is my True Guru.
ਊਠਤ ਬੈਠਤ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਹ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
oothath baithath sathigur saeveh jith saeviai saanth paaee ||
While standing up and sitting down, I serve the True Guru; serving Him, I have found peace.
ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ ॥੧॥
maerai man maerai man sathigur preeth lagaaee ||1||
My mind, my mind - the True Guru has blessed it with the Lord's Love. ||1||
ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਰਸੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
ho jeevaa ho jeevaa sathigur dhaekh sarasae raam ||
I live, I live, and I blossom forth, beholding the True Guru.
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਗਸੇ ਰਾਮ ॥
har naamo har naam dhrirraaeae jap har har naam vigasae raam ||
The Name of the Lord, the Name of the Lord, He has implanted within me; chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, I blossom forth.
ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਮਲ ਪਰਗਾਸੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਵੰ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
jap har har naam kamal paragaasae har naam navan nidhh paaee ||
Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, the heart-lotus blossoms forth, and through the Name of the Lord, I have obtained the nine treasures.
ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਗਇਆ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਥਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਈ ॥
houmai rog gaeiaa dhukh laathhaa har sehaj samaadhh lagaaee ||
The disease of egotism has been eradicated, suffering has been eliminated, and I have entered the Lord's state of celestial Samaadhi.
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਈ ਸੁਖੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੇਵ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਸੇ ॥
har naam vaddaaee sathigur thae paaee sukh sathigur dhaev man parasae ||
I have obtained the glorious greatness of Name of the Lord from the True Guru; beholding the Divine True Guru, my mind is at peace.
ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਰਸੇ ॥੨॥
ho jeevaa ho jeevaa sathigur dhaekh sarasae ||2||
I live, I live, and I blossom forth, beholding the True Guru. ||2||
ਕੋਈ ਆਣਿ ਕੋਈ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
koee aan koee aan milaavai maeraa sathigur pooraa raam ||
If only someone would come, if only someone would come, and lead me to meet my Perfect True Guru.
ਹਉ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਹਉ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਵਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਾਟਿ ਸਰੀਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
ho man than ho man than dhaevaa this kaatt sareeraa raam ||
My mind and body, my mind and body - I cut my body into pieces, and I dedicate these to Him.
ਹਉ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਕਾਟਿ ਕਾਟਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇਈ ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਚਨ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥
ho man than kaatt kaatt this dhaeee jo sathigur bachan sunaaeae ||
Cutting my mind and body apart, cutting them into pieces, I offer these to the one, who recites to me the Words of the True Guru.
ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਬੈਰਾਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ॥
maerai man bairaag bhaeiaa bairaagee mil gur dharasan sukh paaeae ||
My unattached mind has renounced the world; obtaining the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan, it has found peace.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਸੁਖਦਾਤੇ ਦੇਹੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਚਰਨ ਹਮ ਧੂਰਾ ॥
har har kirapaa karahu sukhadhaathae dhaehu sathigur charan ham dhhooraa ||
O Lord, Har, Har, O Giver of Peace, please, grant Your Grace, and bless me with the dust of the feet of the True Guru.
ਕੋਈ ਆਣਿ ਕੋਈ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥੩॥
koee aan koee aan milaavai maeraa sathigur pooraa ||3||
If only someone would come, if only someone would come, and lead me to meet my Perfect True Guru. ||3||
ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261
gur jaevadd gur jaevadd dhaathaa mai avar n koee raam ||
A Giver as great as the Guru, as great as the Guru - I cannot see any other.
ਹਰਿ ਦਾਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮ ॥
har dhaano har dhaan dhaevai har purakh niranjan soee raam ||
He blesses me with the gift of the Lord's Name, the gift of the Lord's Name; He is the Immaculate Lord God.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਭਾਗਾ ॥
har har naam jinee aaraadhhiaa thin kaa dhukh bharam bho bhaagaa ||
Those who worship in adoration the Name of the Lord, Har, Har - their pain, doubts and fears are dispelled.
ਸੇਵਕ ਭਾਇ ਮਿਲੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਨੀ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
saevak bhaae milae vaddabhaagee jin gur charanee man laagaa ||
Through their loving service, those very fortunate ones, whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet, meet Him.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
kahu naanak har aap milaaeae mil sathigur purakh sukh hoee ||
Says Nanak, the Lord Himself causes us to meet the Guru; meeting the Almighty True Guru, peace is obtained.
ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
gur jaevadd gur jaevadd dhaathaa mai avar n koee ||4||1||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261
A Giver as great as the Guru, as great as the Guru - I cannot see any other. ||4||1||

Sikh80 · #7 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2008, 22:21 PM

AwpIn@Y Awpu swijEnu Awpy hI QMim@ KloAw ] (968-14, rwmklI, blvMif qy sqw)
He created Himself, and He Himself is the supporting pillar.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261

Honey22 · #8 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2008, 22:28 PM

For a Sikh Guru is eternal. Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Crisma is SO GREAT, he even made historians and others says this about Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji, what to talk about Gurmukhs. All of the Bani is saying this Truth again and again, Guru Sahib Ji made Guru Ji eternal even for non Gurmukhs. Any body who write names of Gurus, at 11th Guru they do end up saying THIS ONE IS ETERNAL. and some say 11th Nanak------Dhan Guru Ji, Dhan Dhan Guru Ji.

pauVI ]
siqguru vfw kir swlwhIAY ijsu ivic vfIAw vifAweIAw ]
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261
sih myly qw ndrI AweIAw ]
jw iqsu Bwxw qw min vsweIAw ]
kir hukmu msqik hQu Dir ivchu mwir kFIAw buirAweIAw ]
sih quTY nau iniD pweIAw ]18]

Pauree:
Praise the Great True Guru; within Him is the greatest greatness.
When the Lord causes us to meet the Guru, then we come to see them.
When it pleases Him, they come to dwell in our minds.
By His Command, when He places His hand on our foreheads, wickedness departs from within.
When the Lord is thoroughly pleased, the nine treasures are obtained. ||18||

Guru is Infinite

Sikh80 · #9 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2008, 22:36 PM

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22261
Bani Nirankaar hey.....