Is SGGS God?

In my effort to sort out Orthodox from Naamdhari from Nirankare and understand how Sikhi evolved from the message of Guru Nanak to the situation I see in videos where it's hard to tell who is attacking who, I keep running into this statement that certain Sikhs are not really Sikhs because they say that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a book.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/20882-is-sggs-god.html

And I'm thinking, "But it IS a BOOK." So is that heresy? I mean, when I read and heard that Guru Gobind Singh put an end to the human Guru lineage and named the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the last Guru, I thought that meant that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was the final teacher, what brings one from darkness to light (as that is what I'm told the definition of Guru is). That made sense to me sense our sacred texts are our teachers.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882

But now I'm getting the idea that Sikhi (or some groups of Sikhs anyhow) actually believe that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a living entity, the reincarnation of Guru Nanak. And thinking about that I immediately thought of the fact that many Sikhs also believe that Guru Nanak IS God.

So does that mean that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji IS God? Or is it the place we find the inspired word of God and since the knowledge it holds brings one from darkness to light, it can be considered "Guru?" Do you believe that it is actually a divine living entity or do you call it the Guru because it is now the only teacher the Sikhs have?

 
Do share your immediate thoughts or reactions on this issue? We value your views! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views with us.. Gurfateh!

CarolineJi;
I'll quote this from an excellent book I'm reading "The Sikh Way to God Realization" by Dr. Sureet Kaur, 2004 pub: Bhai Daya Singh Charitable Trust
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882

"Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not considered a mere book or scripture but the visible form of the Guru (in word form). A sikh who follows it's teachings in word, deed and thought is ensured liberation." p. 75
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882

Also "In sikhism the stress in not on human Guru. ....The physical body of Guru acts as an instrument for expressing the word of God. The human Guru assumes such complete unity with the holy word that there remains no distinction between shabad and Guru. But it does not mean that sikhism believes in incarnation of God in the form of Guru. God does not take birth according to the sikh religion. The union between the Guru and God is only at the spiritual level." p. 75

I think this explains it very well, the author has an M.A. , M. Phil and Ph.D in Religious Studies from Punjabi University, Patiala so this is a very mainstream scholarly work, which is why it's in my university library.
I hope this is helpful!

This answer is so clear and wraps the questions up for me. So I am so thankful to you.

Just as a side note, every now and then I will bring a question form the forum to Gurdwara out of simple curiosity. How do people who have been practicing Sikhs for a lifetime react? granthi, assistant granthi, gurdwara secretary, members who attend, grad students, stray teenager here and there -- who may be just hanging out a bit after services -- And they are very polite, but they roll their eyes. Here she goes again!!!!!

They do not consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to be God. But exactly the way expressed above -- the unity is complete with Shabad and God, The Shabad is Guru, The book itself is holy. The book is not God.

If God is the opposite of Dog, then Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is definitely God.
Because a dog needs to be fed, while Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji feeds us.
Because we need to touch the feet of our Master, while a dog touch ours.
Because a dog will bite us if we try to put it to death, whereas Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji remains unharmed even if we were to cremeate old editions.
Because a dog can be silenced but Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji cannot be.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882
All this is so only because GOD and DOG are seen differently.

(Posted as a member)

I'm the dog here.

ਕਹਾ ਸੁਆਨ ਕਉ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੁਨਾਏ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882
Kahā su­ān ka­o simriṯ sunā­ė.
Why bother to read the Simritees to a dog?
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

GOD and DOG are seen differently. Very cool.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882

Yes if one means the actual book. No if one means the message in the book. My opinion only of course.

Aren't we supposed to hear the Shabad within us. So if we are separated from the book, we are never separated from the Shabad.

I think as you spend more time reading on this forum you will see that there are many varied philosophies on many elements of Sikh faith and this is one of them. There are many Sikhs who do believe that the Guru is actually God -- even "mainstream" Sikhs.

Thank you! I will see if I can find some work by that author.

One of the points of confusion is this. What does someone mean when they are saying Guru -- Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- the book -- or Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- the Shabad, with a capital S? I do not think there is as much confusion about the issue as there is about the way language is used.

Namjap, do you know what you get when you cross a dyslexic, and an agnostic, and an insomniac?

A person who lies awake at night wondering if there really is a Dog.



I agree that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji being our Guru (teacher) is to be understood in a more figurative sense in that the word of God is expressed in the written word in a way that we can grasp and understand but that it is actually that message IN those words that is the teacher who brings us from darkness to light.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882

So my question is, considering that most agree with this definition, why is the fact that Namdhari Sikhs consider the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to be a book with the writings of the Gurus (word of God) used as grounds to exclude them from Sikhism? They also believe in the 10 Gurus, but they believe in subsequent Gurus as well. I watched as many videos on youtube as I could and saw the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji always placed in the same place of honor it is in mainstream Sikh gatherings. Now I know youtube is not exactly an authority (LOL) but it is actual video. It seems to me that the ideas about Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are not what sets them apart as much as their belief in the continued incarnation of gurus and perhaps their politics.

I will admit that I don't know most of the facts in this situation, and that's why I'm bringing it to the forum. I realize that there is some support from the government but I will tell you that some of them say that is because the Namdhari Sikhs are excluded or discriminated against by mainstream Sikhs and that is why the support -- sort of like programs for minorities here in the states.

So what is the discrepency really? The attitudes about Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji aren't really that different between what I've seen so far with namdhari Sikhs and mainstream Sikhs.

Pardon my ignorance!

The position of the Namdhari goes back to the martyrdom of Sri Gobind Singh in 1708. They do not indeed see Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the Word of God. However, Sri Guru Gobind Singh, as you are aware, declared the 11th Guru to be "Guru Granth Sahib" ending the succession of human gurus. However, there were 2 ( I think) among his followers in the Panth that argued that Gobind Singh's message was not understood properly and claimed a kind of apostolic succession. The Namdhari continue from that time to believe a number of things that are not consistent with Shabad Guru followers. One of these is indeed that Guru takes a human form.

Here caroline ji is an account of events -- written from the Namdhari point of view -- but also very detailed in terms of things that are distinctly different about Namdhari. In addition to their position on human gurus, they reject the idea of dowry, and they are strict vegetarians. This article pretty much lays it out.

Brief Remarks About Namdhari Sikhs

By, S. S. Jeet
The word Namdhari Sikh (Sant-Khalsa) means, "One who has the Name of God (Nam-Simran) in his or her heart." Sikhs who adhere strictly to the teachings of the Sikh Gurus. In the second half of the 19th century, Punjabis again became the Sant Sipahi and joined the Sant Khalsa whom people called Namdhari or Kuka Sikhs. They wear white clothing and, by their methods of tyng the turban (As original Sikhs tied) horizontally across the forehead, one can recognise them very easily.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji felt, that God could be obtained only through divine grace and through the guidance of a True Guru (Satguru). He did not preach renuciation of the world as was being done by many other saints of the Bhakti movement. He told people to: "Abide pure amidst the impurities of the world." Guru Nanak was very keen on preaching equality, worship one God and practise and meditate on His true name with the guidance, kindness and Grace of the Satguru. In the time of Guru Angad, Guru Amar Dass and Guru Ram Dass, Sikhism (Cult of Name-God's True Name) advanced further perfection in its various attributes both moral and material. During the Guruship of Guru Arjun Dev Ji, the principles of Guru Nanak took a firm hold on the minds of his followers. Guru Harghobind grasped the swords and declared himself the spiritual and political head of his followers (Sikhs), assumed attributes, and at the same time, the sixth Guru did not neglect religious duties. Sikhism met a far more serious challenge when Aurangjeb (Mughal Ruler) came into power. Guru Har Rai was harassed by him and Guru Har Krishan, a mere child, was summoned to the imperial court in Delhi, where he died of smallpox. The ninth Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur had died with the word: "I have given my head and not my determination (Dharam)." Natually, martyrdom inspired the Sikhs with ideas of resolute struggle and fighting for their identity; an open conflict with the Mughals became inevitable.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882

The tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, prepared his followers with zest and forsight; tenth and brave Satguru gave them courage by name confidence with baptism (amrit) and tenacity of purpose with a uniform Khalsa look (i.e. Sant Siphi). His Holiness wrote a new chapter of Sikh History and wrote it on the granite of time. In fact, the greatest work of Guru Gobind Singh was the creation of Khalsa in 1699. Guru Gobind Singh was not only a great and mighty warrior, the creator of Khalsa, but he was also a great (Saint) Satguru and a scholar who carried on the mission of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was during this time that Sikhism established its new identity and appeared as a stream of distiction from the Hindu and Islamic religions.

The mighty Sikh movement of struggle and reserection continued even after Guru Gobind Singh, and thrusted this task and the Guru-ship was confered by His Holiness (Tenth Guru) onto Guru Balak Singh of Huzro, who passed it on to Guru Ram Singh Ji of Bhaini District Ludhiana. At the same time, it is fundimental to Namdhari Sikhs believe that Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not die in 1708 in Nanded, but lived until 1812 A.D. Namdhari Sikhs also believe that Guru Gobind Singh did not confer the Guru-ship upon the Adi-Granth but rather upon Sri Satguru Balak Singh and succession of Gurus followed after him which was started by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. This distinguishes them from the other Sikhs, and they call themselves SANT KHALSA (i.e. NAMDHARI SIKHS). Namdhari Sikhs are very strict followers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Guru Ram Singh Ji. Such a great reformer or revivalist was Sri Satguru Ram Singh, who reformed the Sikh society in the second half of the nineteeth century, that within a few years a million of the Punjabis again became the Sant Sipahis and joined the Sant Khalsa. His Holiness attracted His true diciples (Namdharis) towards entirely original tenets of Guru Sikhee Maryada (code conduct of the Gurusikhee).

Giving them (Namdhari Sikhs), a moral height they had altogether lost, bestowing upon them a new life of purity, simplicity, fearlessness and Love, which they needed badly since the last century; cared them of all their Corroding Maladies and prepared them for a new Crusade against the crushing evil of foreign rule. The religious and national life of the Sikhs and other other communities had been completely ruined in India. Guru Ram Singh was a clear headed leader of the same (lived) category-line on his predecssor (Gurus) who launched a crusade for religious reforms and revival movement. Guru Ram Singh discerned that political independace had disappeared from Punjab and the rest of the country because true religion (Guru-Mat) had become extinct in the hearts of the people. To revive the self pride of the Khalsa, Satguru Ram Singh established a new centre and new atmosphere of Punjab. The Namdhari movement began in India as a reform and a protest movement with regards to the Sikh community of the 19th century. They also played a significant role in the struggle against British Rule. During the struggle for the freedom movement in India, and all over the world, whenever and wherever the Goddess of Liberty demanded its price and quivered its thristy lips, the Namdhari Sikhs offered cup-fulls of blood for sacrifice.

The sacrifice of the Namdhari Sikhs shocked the British rule of the time, resulting in imposition of various restrictions and discrimination against them. But they adopted the resistance movement, programme of swadeshi, non-cooperation and boycott of foreign goods and continued their struggle for the liberation of the country along side the Indian National Congress through a democratic way. Namdharis are staunch vegitarians and do not use alcohol, tobacco etc. Worship, reading-resiting Gurbani and meditation (Nam-Simran) recitation of the true Name are central to Namdhari Sikhs.
Since 1947, when India became free from British Rule, the role of Namdharis has become more significant. They are the sybols of India's seccularism, as they command element. They provide the mother land with the most experianced artisans, contractors, cattle breeders, farmers, business men, etc. for its growing industry and development. They embody the rural culture of India with their zest for agriculture and vigorous protectors of the wealth of cattle rearing. Under the spritual guidance of their present Guru-Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji, they are growing in prosperity, and strength.

Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji is stressed for social reforms and more simplified and econimcal marriage (Mass Anand and Karag ceremony). His Holiness urges the Sikhs to strictly follow their `Gurumat' tenets in and outside India. So, much so that millions of Sikhs of Guru Nanak NAM LEVA (NAMDHARIS) now spread to distinct corners of the globe; become vegetarians teetotallers and Guru Sikhs. The services and blessings provided by His Holiness Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji for world peace and against modern warfare weapons are noteworthy. His Holiness always stresses on the Holy teachings of the Gurus and strictly leads the life according to the, `Gurumat' tenets (Guru-Marayada). His Holiness attaches equal importance and respect to the Adi Granth and Dasam Granth Composition Chandi di Var in their daily Nit-Nem. So the Namdhari Sikhs are original Sikhs of the Satgurus.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20882

As freedom fighters during the 19th Century, no one disputes the steadiness of their conviction and commitment. There are however major differences as far as ocus of divinity.