Contradictions of Opinion

So is it fair to assume that nobody achieved this level of consciousness before the establishment of the first Khalsa?

 
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Is Guruji capable of imparting Naam to whom he pleases? I thought this was something that came from inside and not outside and was only imparted to us by the Guru's grace.

Kind of like this: YouTube - What is Guru?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/20679-contradictions-of-opinion.html

Thanks for your patience

Thank you , I don´t deserve this.

ok, just a couple of things i have to mention... actually, one very important aspect of bana is that we are SUPPOSED to stand out in a crowd. we are supposed to be readily recognized so people can find us for assistance. we are never allowed to hide from danger or anything else, we must stand and face every injustice. our bana makes us equals, makes us kings and queens. in Guru ji's time, only rulers could wear Turbans. only certain castes could carry weapons. Guru ji gave EVERY Sikh a turban, a crown, making us ALL rulers. and making us all equals. (this really upset the mughals, by the way! ...)

so in a way, it is for others as well as for us.


also, one thing no one has mentioned in this thread is the concept of Miri/Piri - Sant/Saphai. if we ONLY focus on the exterior, we're missing half of the equation. however, the opposite is also true. if we ONLY focus on "being sikh on the inside" (as many people like to say), we're also missing half of what it means to be Sikh.

just a thought.

The Panj Piare are Guruji's own saroop. The Panj Piare is Guru. When Dasam Pita Ji invested Gurgaddhi into Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he also invested it into Panj Piare and the Khalsa Panth. You mention legalism and rules as straying off the path. Yet Gurbani is not manmade legalism and rules, its Guruji's hukam. When we stray from Guruji's hukam, we are off Guruji's path. Dasam Pita Ji did not include his own bani into Shabad Guru Ji. But it is still bani. And it is still the Panthic tradition. And there are still supportive sources to corroborate what Dasam Pita Ji said about the Khalsa. The Panj Piare was invested with Guruship when Guruji selected the 5 beloved ones and Himself bowed down to them. It's not a bureaucracy, it's a path with pyaar! Panj Piare make corporate decisions for the Panth.

Those rules you're talking about, that you say is "legalism" that overtakes us, is that the Rehit Maryada you're refering to? The code of conduct given to all amritdhari Sikhs? Because if your challenging the legitimacy of Sikh institutions such as the Panj Piare, the Khalsa, the Rehit Maryada, then you're also challenging the basis for Gurgaddhi of Shabad Guru Ji, since Shabad Guru was invested at the same time as Panj Piare. And as I said before, the bani of Satguru Gobind Singh Ji was not included in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So what do you base you belief in Gurgaddhi of Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on?

Without some authoritative basis for definitions of Gurmat, no one can establish anything. So when some dedhari Indian government sponsored Hindutva cult comes along and says they have Sikh Satguru Ji... How do we prove they're not right and we should not all go join their cult? If Sikhs can't use authoritative definitions for fear of being legalistic... then nothing at all is clear about Sikhism. And anyone can say anything.

Thank you! This was a very good explanation.

how could the panj piare administer Amrit to Guru Gobind Singh ji if they were simply five men? they are given the AUTHORITY of Guru ji, when administering amrit. after the conclusion of the amrit sanchar they go back to being regular (or rather extraordinary ) Gursikhs.

Harjas Kaur Khalsa,
Are the Panj Piare human beings? Do they instruct you not to take any as savior other than the Gurus? How, then, can you say they ARE Guru? Doesn't that mean you are taking them as savior, exactly as they instructed you not to?

This is my question.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20679
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20679

My opinions about legalism are just my own and we will not agree on that. But I would appreciate if you had an answer to the above question.

Thank you Respectfully,

caroline

I understand this action as a symbol of humility and oneness. No one is high or low. There are many examples of royal, or holy teachers, leaders, prophets etc, serving people who would be considered lower than them as a symbol of proper humility and equality. Just like the 4 doors on the Golden Temple and the sharing of food in the gurdwara. (I won't mention the examples from other religions but you know what I'm thinking anyway. )

That's how I understand it. Not that they were transformed to deities or Guru.