Is Sikhism against People Who Use Their Minds?

This whole thread makes me very uncomfortable. How does gurmukh or manmukh relate to whether you use your mind? Are people saying that the mind should not be used to be a gurmukh (blind faith) or are people saying that not using the mind to follow and focus on the gurbani makes one a manmukh? I am confused!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/14267-sikhism-against-people-who-use-their.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14267

Gurbani encourages the use of bibek buddhi-our intellect and discerning to understand the message of gurbani so not using the mind is not an option!
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The world will not change unless the change starts at home

Findingmyway ji, there is something there when the mind steps to the side. It has nothing to do with blind faith, faith or doubt.

Mind maybe seen as ego-immersed. That's its nature, it is restless because it compulsively analyzes, compulsively judges, compulsively forms concepts about everything. All this judging, analyzing, concept-making and the root of it all, thinking, takes place in the realm of duality. The love for duality is God's Hukam.
It is God-immersed when it is resting because it stops doing those things compulsively. There it sees that its attachment to it, is God's hukam. It then starts seeing God's hukam. Those who immerse themselves in the Hukam then maybe called Gurmukh.

Those who continue with their obsessions and compulsions, maybe called Manmukh. Manmukhs if they start to see their obsessions and compulsions, as just obsessions and compulsions can become Gurmukhs but they are unaware of them. They live as if they are those obsessions and compulsions. They think they are something in the realm of duality. I am a good person. I do good deeds. I am very spiritual. I am someone who does simran everyday. I keep a nitnem. I don't drink. I don't smoke. How dare someone call me foolish? I am very intelligent. I am a Sikh. I have ancestors who were great kings and fearless warriors. I own a house and a car. I have X amount of friends.

Manmukhs live in such thoughts. These thoughts are their reality.

I am standing on a railway platform. The train of thought goes through the station. The other side of the train, the beautiful green grass, the splendour of clouds, suspended particles in mid air, the sweet voice of the wind, the rows of sturdy houses, brilliant bright streetsigns, is unknown to me. Only the train is visible. I am lost in the train. It keeps going. It's so long. This my life... this train. I do not pay attention to the gaps between the cars of the train. If I did I would see the reality. For me the train is the reality on the other side of the train. I have places to go, people to meet. I have no time to see the clouds. Screw the clouds. I have no time for actual meditation, I repeat God's name while focusing on the train. I don't know the sound of my own voice. It cannot be heard from all the noise that the train makes. It could cry for help even then I wouldn't know it.

Was reading this shabad today. Don't know if it's related.
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ घरु १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3 gẖar 1.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl, First House:
ਜਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸਿਰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕਾ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
जिस ही की सिरकार है तिस ही का सभु कोइ ॥
Jis hī kī sirkār hai ṯis hī kā sabẖ ko▫e.
Everyone belongs to the One who rules the Universe.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
गुरमुखि कार कमावणी सचु घटि परगटु होइ ॥
Gurmukẖ kār kamāvṇī sacẖ gẖat pargat ho▫e.
The Gurmukh practices good deeds, and the truth is revealed in the heart.
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਜਿਸ ਕੈ ਸਚੁ ਵਸੈ ਸਚੇ ਸਚੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
अंतरि जिस कै सचु वसै सचे सची सोइ ॥
Anṯar jis kai sacẖ vasai sacẖe sacẖī so▫e.
True is the reputation of the true, within whom truth abides.
ਸਚਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸੇ ਨ ਵਿਛੁੜਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
सचि मिले से न विछुड़हि तिन निज घरि वासा होइ ॥१॥
Sacẖ mile se na vicẖẖuṛėh ṯin nij gẖar vāsā ho▫e. ||1||
Those who meet the True Lord are not separated again; they come to dwell in the home of the self deep within. ||1||
ਮੇਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
मेरे राम मै हरि बिनु अवरु न कोइ ॥
Mere rām mai har bin avar na ko▫e.
O my Lord! Without the Lord, I have no other at all.
ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सतगुरु सचु प्रभु निरमला सबदि मिलावा होइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Saṯgur sacẖ parabẖ nirmalā sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||
ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨਉ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥
सबदि मिलै सो मिलि रहै जिस नउ आपे लए मिलाइ ॥
Sabaḏ milai so mil rahai jis na▫o āpe la▫e milā▫e.
One whom the Lord merges into Himself is merged in the Shabad, and remains so merged.
ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਕੋ ਨਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
दूजै भाइ को ना मिलै फिरि फिरि आवै जाइ ॥
Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ko nā milai fir fir āvai jā▫e.
No one merges with Him through the love of duality; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation.
ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਏਕੋ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
सभ महि इकु वरतदा एको रहिआ समाइ ॥
Sabẖ mėh ik varaṯḏā eko rahi▫ā samā▫e.
The One Lord permeates all. The One Lord is pervading everywhere.
ਜਿਸ ਨਉ ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਸੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
जिस नउ आपि दइआलु होइ सो गुरमुखि नामि समाइ ॥२॥
Jis na▫o āp ḏa▫i▫āl ho▫e so gurmukẖ nām samā▫e. ||2||
That Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord shows His Kindness, is absorbed in the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||2||
ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਜੋਤਕੀ ਵਾਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
पड़ि पड़ि पंडित जोतकी वाद करहि बीचारु ॥
Paṛ paṛ pandiṯ joṯkī vāḏ karahi bīcẖār.
After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate.
ਮਤਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਭਵੀ ਨ ਬੁਝਈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥
मति बुधि भवी न बुझई अंतरि लोभ विकारु ॥
Maṯ buḏẖ bẖavī na bujẖ▫ī anṯar lobẖ vikār.
Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don't understand. They are filled with greed and corruption.
ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਭਰਮਦੇ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
लख चउरासीह भरमदे भ्रमि भ्रमि होइ खुआरु ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh bẖaramḏe bẖaram bẖaram ho▫e kẖu▫ār.
Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined.
ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
पूरबि लिखिआ कमावणा कोइ न मेटणहारु ॥३॥
Pūrab likẖi▫ā kamāvaṇā ko▫e na metaṇhār. ||3||
They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase. ||3||
ਸਤਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਗਾਖੜੀ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥
सतगुर की सेवा गाखड़ी सिरु दीजै आपु गवाइ ॥
Saṯgur kī sevā gākẖ▫ṛī sir ḏījai āp gavā▫e.
It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness.
ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਹਿ ਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੇਵਾ ਪਵੈ ਸਭ ਥਾਇ ॥
सबदि मिलहि ता हरि मिलै सेवा पवै सभ थाइ ॥
Sabaḏ milėh ṯā har milai sevā pavai sabẖ thā▫e.
Realizing the Shabad, one meets with the Lord, and all one's service is accepted.
ਪਾਰਸਿ ਪਰਸਿਐ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14267
पारसि परसिऐ पारसु होइ जोती जोति समाइ ॥
Pāras parsi▫ai pāras ho▫e joṯī joṯ samā▫e.
By personally experiencing the Personality of the Guru, one's own personality is uplifted, and one's light merges into the Light.
ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਆਇ ॥੪॥
जिन कउ पूरबि लिखिआ तिन सतगुरु मिलिआ आइ ॥४॥
Jin ka▫o pūrab likẖi▫ā ṯin saṯgur mili▫ā ā▫e. ||4||
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru. ||4||
ਮਨ ਭੁਖਾ ਭੁਖਾ ਮਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਮਤ ਤੂ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੂਕਾਰ ॥
मन भुखा भुखा मत करहि मत तू करहि पूकार ॥
Man bẖukẖā bẖukẖā maṯ karahi maṯ ṯū karahi pūkār.
O mind, don't cry out that you are hungry, always hungry; stop complaining.
ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰੀ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
लख चउरासीह जिनि सिरी सभसै देइ अधारु ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh jin sirī sabẖsai ḏe▫e aḏẖār.
The One who created the 8.4 million species of beings gives sustenance to all.
ਨਿਰਭਉ ਸਦਾ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਸਾਰ ॥
निरभउ सदा दइआलु है सभना करदा सार ॥
Nirbẖa▫o saḏā ḏa▫i▫āl hai sabẖnā karḏā sār.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14267
The Fearless Lord is forever Merciful; He takes care of all.
ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥੫॥੩॥੩੬॥
नानक गुरमुखि बुझीऐ पाईऐ मोख दुआरु ॥५॥३॥३६॥
Nānak gurmukẖ bujẖī▫ai pā▫ī▫ai mokẖ ḏu▫ār. ||5||3||36||
O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands, and finds the Door of Liberation. ||5||3||36||

findingmyway ji

When I first joined SPN I had the same frustration. Perseverance reading and study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji makes this clear:

"Manmukh" also does not necessarily lead to a life of obsessive lust, greed, pride, anger, and attachment.

Nor does the tuk, mean we should give up our studies and discussions.

.


It is the mind that seeks


and the mind that finds satisfaction.

[quote=rajsikh;46331]it not only sikhism but every religion hate people who use his/her mind
just for some knowledge and entertainment please watch this old classic,if u can
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14267
name is
INHERIT THE WIND
link to commercial download site removed. Spnadmin
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14267
For your info...
In the New Testament Christians are urged to be as wise as serpents, but as gentle as doves.
Christians are certainly commanded to use their whole mind, having put on the helmet of salvation.

This is an interesting point, watching the religious tv channels again the other day, I watched a preacher talking to a large number of people about his definition of gods will. The religion concerned is not important, but it was not a sikh channel. He stated that if everyone followed the rules as set out in their holy book, then they would all go to heaven, where everything was wonderful, and if they did not, they would go to hell, and there was much mention of fire, implements of torture etc. At no point was the subject of 'understanding' mentioned. The message was clear, do these things, go to heaven, do these other things go to hell. The preacher talked about how hard it was to resist doing bad things, but we all had to attempt to shut off that bad voice and listen to the good voice.

Findingmywayji, this is the type of religion that , in my view, does encourage you not to use your own mind. I could have stopped living as a fool years ago, but in my view, that would have been blind faith, what I personally needed was intelligent and reasoned arguments why I would not want to live like that anymore, and that I found here on this forum.

That has been my search, not for some authority to tell me whats wrong and right, but for my mind to develop to a point where things that I could do without even thinking before, now, I have no desire or need to do them anymore. I hope to die in peace doing what I do, not out of fear of hell, or desire of heaven, but because in my heart, I have no attraction for them.

I still drink sometimes, I know that each drink I have takes me further away from the truth, and each absent day helps me get closer, at some point, I will have to make a decision, which is more attractive to me?, I will have to ponder the effects of even the odd drink with my beliefs and attempt to reconcile that as to what I actually am. In time, I will not even have my weekly odd lager, as the benefits will outweigh the drawbacks, this takes understanding faith and a working brain. I personally would rather throw myself off a cliff than adhere to a religion that deep down, was a fight and struggle all the way to the end, blind faith..

I can't help, but reply as a Christian, because that is what I am.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14267
If we look in the New Testament, the thing that Jesus said most of all was "Fear not."
God is Love and Love casts out fear, so as we walk with God we can find strength and hope to do the right thing.
Following rules & regulations is not much fun is it?
Much better to live with the Spirit of God, rather than with the Letter of the Law.
The Bible says, 'The Law kills, but the Spirit brings Life'
Furthermore, as you say... it is not a matter of a 'blind faith'
Faith needs to have substance and according to the Bible, 'Faith is the presence of things hoped for, of things believed in.'
So our walk is with God and we go forward in faith...
We are inspired by God who is perfect; and our walk of faith is accompanied by prayer to Him, to abide with us and help us walk in a way that is pleasing in His sight and pleasing to others.
We live in a world that is constantly changing and we also are constantly changing, but we hope to walk in righteousness and truth, in Peace and Love.

POTTER Ji ,
I agree to your views as revealed in the new testament .In India I have lestened to the discourses of Chritianity and many times I get the feelings of the effects of messages as similar to what we get from our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
We should bear in mind that tha Basic Principles are everywhere almost same just as Basic laws of science are same all over the world.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14267
We should have first strong understanding of Very fundmental and Basic laws before we make elaborative explanations.But generally we ignore the fundamental and Basic conepts of the philosophy and directly enter into lenghty dialogues leading to nowhere and we all stand again where we start.
I personally listen to the discourses of different religious philosophies and I find that there are persons talking about the fundamentals and Basics only .I find not much difference there.
Prakash.S.Bagga

The very Basic and Fundamental nature of the CREATOR is dual . So we can find duality in every creation.
This is very important consideration .
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14267
Prakash.s.Bagga

Potterji,

many thanks for your kind words, If I were a christian, I would have been a Gnostic