Harper defends same-sex marriage stance

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Originally Posted by TheCoopes Surely what you expect from others you should be willing practice?

If I had a belief that was disrciminative against the rights of minorities I would not expect all to respect it

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Originally Posted by TheCoopes If my lack of understanding is through my ignorance then is there no allowance in your eyes for that?

Most people are too stuck in their ways to accept the possibility that they maybe wrong. I hold you in high respect for that.

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Originally Posted by TheCoopes If I am to be tolerant to you, does that mean that I cannot hold an opinion that is different than yours?

Tolerance is not restricting the rights of others.

 
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Thank-you for your response to my post thecoopes I am thoroughly enjoying this discourse.

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My opinions are not sacrosanct and in the great scheme of things may well be wrong.

The same of course is true of myself.

I'll keep this one short. I only added the quotes from the holy bible to illustrate two points. First, it is not at all simple to interpret text especially religious ones where some areas are taken to be metaphoric whereas others are taken to be literal (with no clear way of understanding which is which). My suggestion was that the basis for finding the holy bible to be against homosexuality is not all that clear cut. Of course the same can also be said of the holy text of Sikhism and other religions so again it is not a slight
against Christianity.

Second it was in response to your early post where you indicated that:

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The issue of same sex marriage surely should be down not to what we think is right or wrong but what the God who we profess to worship views as right or wrong?

Again, my idea was to illustrate that it is not at all clear what your God professes (assuming that as a christian you believe the holy bible to contain God's views).

My point about the importance of one moral issue over another (ie. same sex marraige vs unjustified wars where innocent people are slaughtered) was meant to illustrate that even if same-sex marraige is wrong it surely does not compare to other far more grevious moral transgressions.

In reference to Corn. where you are quite correct it appears to be clear cut. As you conceed in your post in reply to biblical quotes on slavery:

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Well many of the things written in the Bible are in respect of life at the time of writing

could the same not apply in the case of homosexuality?

In regards to your reply on my point about "drunken Las Vegas weddings" your quite correct to point out that true Christianity would not approve of such a marraige. I may be guilty here of making an assumption about you based upon what other christians have said about marraige and was meant to butress my position that most christians accept these marraiges as legitimate but would never support the rights of same-sex couples. I apologize for making this assumption about you. But I do have one question for you: do you believe that it is acceptable for people that can't (older of infertile people) or do not want to conceive children to marry? I ask this as the traditional notion of marraige that most Christian (or other religious groups) opponents use views marraige and sex as only legitimate when procreation is the intent. If anything other than procreation is an acceptable reason for marraige in your view than please explain why a same-sex couple marraige is unacceptable.

Thank-you for sharing your views with me!

I find it quite a strange contradiction that one can have opposing views about the wrongs of smoking, drinking alcohol, adultery, and numerous other lifestyle preferences of our fellow man and yet if any dare to say that they don’t agree with same sex love then we are viewed as an anathema, and as narrow minded bigots!



In a society made up of people of all sorts some have views diametrically opposed to mine, and so mine are diametrically opposed to them. I am not forcing them to accept my views so the rights and wrongs of their beliefs and their actions must therefore rest on their shoulders.



What follows are answers to the question according to my personal views within the thread started by Aman Singh.



The same of course is true of myself.

I'll keep this one short. I only added the quotes from the holy bible to illustrate two points. First, it is not at all simple to interpret text especially religious ones where some areas are taken to be metaphoric whereas others are taken to be literal (with no clear way of understanding which is which). My suggestion was that the basis for finding the holy bible to be against homosexuality is not all that clear cut. Of course the same can also be said of the holy text of Sikhism and other religions so again it is not a slight
against Christianity.



Now take this however you please and interpret in anyway you like, but the Bible is very clear in its reference to men and women and marriage. Genesis 2:24. That is why a man will leave his father and mother and stick to his wife and they will become one flesh.

The words of Moses there in Genesis are repeated by Paul in the letter to the congregation in Ephesus. Eph5:31. As the scripture says for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and unite with his wife and the two will become one flesh.

Now nowhere in the bible does it say or imply that it is to be the same way with two of the same sex. Indeed when the requirement for being an elder in the church was stipulated then it was said and quote: 1Timothy 3:2...The Church leader must be without fault, he must have only one wife, be sober, self-controlled and orderly.....

The Bible is full of references to homosexuality but never in an acceptable context.

Second it was in response to your early post where you indicated that:

Quote:


The issue of same sex marriage surely should be down not to what we think is right or wrong but what the God who we profess to worship views as right or wrong?


Again, my idea was to illustrate that it is not at all clear what your God professes (assuming that as a christian you believe the holy bible to contain God's views).
There is no confusion in the Bible as to the conduct that God requires of man, but as the bible says man has twisted Gods words for their own gain. 1Tim 4:1..The spirit says expressly that in after times some will desert from the faith and give their minds over to subversive doctrines.... through the specious falsehoods of men etc
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-news/1661-harper-defends-same-sex-marriage-stance.html




My point about the importance of one moral issue over another (ie. same sex marraige vs unjustified wars where innocent people are slaughtered) was meant to illustrate that even if same-sex marraige is wrong it surely does not compare to other far more grevious moral transgressions.

In reference to Corn. where you are quite correct it appears to be clear cut. As you conceed in your post in reply to biblical quotes on slavery:

Quote:


Well many of the things written in the Bible are in respect of life at the time of writing


could the same not apply in the case of homosexuality?

Well it could if you wanted it to? But then you need to ask about Gods condemnation of, adultery, lying, steeling, fornication, and murder.... How far do you want to go?



In regards to your reply on my point about "drunken Las Vegas weddings" your quite correct to point out that true Christianity would not approve of such a marraige. I may be guilty here of making an assumption about you based upon what other christians have said about marraige and was meant to butress my position that most christians accept these marraiges as legitimate but would never support the rights of same-sex couples. I apologize for making this assumption about you. But I do have one question for you: do you believe that it is acceptable for people that can't (older of infertile people) or do not want to conceive children to marry? I ask this as the traditional notion of marraige that most Christian (or other religious groups) opponents use views marraige and sex as only legitimate when procreation is the intent. If anything other than procreation is an acceptable reason for marraige in your view than please explain why a same-sex couple marraige is unacceptable.

I believe that the traditional marriage with all its values and ideals that I experienced when I was a child growing up is the best structure to bring a family into the world. But what if you don’t want children or can’t have children? Then is marriage out of the question and if not then does this automatically make it right that two people of the same sex who likewise will not conceive children can then experience the same relationship?

The Bible is full of evidence that it is not necessary for a married couple to have children, Abraham and Sarah were childless until God made it possible for her to conceive.

So for a Christian, the answer can only be between man and woman. If we want anything else then we are perfectly entitled to choose but as with adultery or steeling we need to ask is this acceptable to God?



These are my beliefs based on what I understand, do not become a slave of my conscience but likewise do not expect me to be a slave of yours.



Very best wishes



John

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=1661

Thecoopes,

I am somewhat perplexed by your last post. I never called you a "narrow minded biggot". If you recall, in my post I stated (I feels funny quoting myself but ..)

I truly meant this and I apologize if this was unclear. No offence or disrespect was intended. In a previous post in another thread I maintained that I have yet to hear a single reasonable argument against it --I still maintain this position. So my reason in invoking this discourse was to humbly attempt to understand your perspective. I am more than comfortable with agreeing to disagree but I feel that it is important understand the perspective of those that hold different views from my own --I find it is a wonderul way of improving myself. Thank-you for sharing!


Kind regards.

Ravi Singh

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I believe that the traditional marriage with all its values and ideals that I experienced when I was a child growing up is the best structure to bring a family into the world. But what if you don’t want children or can’t have children? Then is marriage out of the question and if not then does this automatically make it right that two people of the same sex who likewise will not conceive children can then experience the same relationship?

They are not harming anybody by getting married! Infact, them getting married will prompt people more into getting married since most people do not want to get married these days.

Why did god create man and woman? why not just one sex? Why are man and woman made to complicate one another?Why cannot two of the same sex produce a child? Hey if we were all gay wouldnt we just die out?

[QUOTE=ravisingh]Thecoopes,

I am somewhat perplexed by your last post. I never called you a "narrow minded biggot". If you recall, in my post I stated (I feels funny quoting myself but ..)


You have nothing to apologise for, this was in reference to CaramelChocolate's reply (Another typical heterosexual hate-filled style response. )
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=1661



By the way, all my replies refer only to my understanding and are the reasons why I don't believe its right. They are not commands being issued forth from me for any to change their life style. As I said I have enough sin of my own to worry about.


You see it is very hard to make a comment on something in a totally dispassionate manner when it is to do with deep-seated beliefs that go beyond personal preferences.

I really enjoy discussing this with you and by all means you may ask me anything.

With very best thoughts and intentions toward you all.



John
NB: CaramelChocolate. Dear John don’t get so tetchy; I am not your enemy! Just a friend with a different viewpoint.

Dear Muslim friend. By the way happy birthday for your nineteenth

So if God made them man and woman who made the Hermaphrodite’s? You must look at the bigger picture, as there are deeper reasons behind many of what you would call a clear cut right and wrong!

People can have a genetic reason for not feeling drawn to the opposite sex also our brains are extremely complex and the centres governing emotions and desires can be influenced and stimulated by subtle changes within the cellular structure of this delicate organ during its development.

Also maybe it would be a good thing if we all died out and let the animals have the planet back, as they are governed by instinct and do not have the need to reason on the right and wrong of an issue.

To them everything is as you see it clear-cut.



Best wishes to you



John