Was Guru Nanak God?

i just got home from the local Gurdwara, and there there was a sikh from England who claimed that Guru Nanak was God himself.... i thought he was ridiculous and went home to research and found these verses.

Page 136, Line 10
ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਚਿ ਖਰੇ ॥
हरि गुरु पूरा आराधिआ दरगह सचि खरे ॥
har gur pooraa aaraaDhi-aa dargeh sach kharay.
Those who meditate on the Perfect Guru, the Lord-Incarnate-they are judged true in the Court of the Lord.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 306, Line 14
ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਫਲ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥
नानक सेवा करहु हरि गुर सफल दरसन की फिरि लेखा मंगै न कोई ॥२॥
naanak sayvaa karahu har gur safal darsan kee fir laykhaa mangai na ko-ee. ||2||
O Nanak, serve the Guru, the Lord Incarnate; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan is profitable, and in the end, you shall not be called to account. ||2||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


and there are propbably also others..

it this true ? was Guru Nanak and the others God?.

if if they were, who were they praying to? If their prayers were just God showing how a prayer should be done, it means that their Prayers were empty rituals as God can not pray to God, since there is only One God.

The Guru's slept, ate, had children etc..does this mean that God is limited as a human being who needs sleep, rest, etc??

i cant make this work...seriously..how could Guru Nanak have been God?

Respected Kaur-1 Ji

Today or in any time period, a ‘real’ Saint- does not call himself/herself a guru. It is the followers who claim them to be their Guru.

Only a follower who himself/herself is at a certain level of spiritual elevation(a person who has some knowledge and know the value of the divine attributes) can tell about a Saint- if he/she is a real or a fake.

Saints/Gurmukhs/Brahm Gyani/Sadhu happens in all times.
These people are humble to the extent of Guru Arjun Dev Ji and Guru Nanak Dev Ji, they have the sense of Sacrifice to the extent of Guru Gobind Singh Ji has, most of all they consider themselves to be the sevaks(servants) of those who are bhagats/sadhaks/seekers and they help the seekers whole heartedly without asking for any donations(money or in kind). Their knowledge/wisdom is not for sale.

Now think about your body, from head to toe how many actions and reactions are going on, all is happening by itself- who is doing it- God. And He never claims that HE is doing all this for us. This kind of quality a real Saint has. He/She does good for the humanity and never claims it. People who recognize the truth make that person a Saint/Guru.

A guru is the voice of God-the revealer of God’s word

And God’s word is revealed to us in so many different ways. (As HE is ALL) God’s way of doing this is limitless-cannot be explained. Discussing this issue of the acceptance of living Guru or not is a waste of time.

What Guru does is show us the path, Path to God(Home).
How can Guru tell us about the path- as He is there at Home.(Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru and has the teachings from several Gurus and Bhagats who are reached Home)
Now walking the path is bhagat’s job.
Guru will assist on every step, but you have to walk yourself.
And God is going to accept your bhagti or not- it is God’s Will. Bhagat has to develop a lot of divine qualities in them to receive His Nadar.
For some it takes many lifetimes.
Many seeker gets assistance from different sources during different lifetimes. So how we learn everything depends on where we are born/language we speak/religion we follow and more.

Our job is finding our own mistakes(and correct them) and looking at others good points(and follow them).


Dharam can be a step to achieve salvation but this is not the only step.
Dharam disciplines us.
If your soul is enough disciplined otherwise(from a prior lifetime) you may not need a religion to depend on. Any Realized Soul or a Spritual Book or Souce can become your Guru.

__________________
surinder

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh,

I am very baffled to note that why do you have to make life so complicated when things can be explained very simply.

Anyone who gives you the “GUR” is referred to as a Guru. This “Gur” can be spiritual or non-spiritual. Our school teachers are also our Gurus because we have learnt something from them. Spiritually, a Guru is one who sows the seed or gives you “Naam”. He can be aSaint/Gurmukh/Brahm Gyani/Sadhu or for that matter he can be disguised as a beggar. You are unlikely to know him unless he wishes to reveal himself. The important thing is not the “Guru” but the “Naam” he has given. You can sit next to a Guru all you life but not get anywhere. You task is to populate the “Naam” the seed he has sown. When the fruits on the tree are ripe and bursting with aroma, the Sower will again enter your life to pick the fruit. Until such time you wait patiently. Remember, again the Sower can come again in any disguise but this time you will be in a position to recognise him.

We are not capable of recognising how the process works. So please, please do not try to define what you do not understand. You are just playing a game of words. Learn the example from our Gurus. By defining, not only will you waste your time but you will also confuse others. Your Sower will come and go but you will be sitting waiting for the Guru you have imagined.

As far as the question of Guru Nanak Dev ji being God? Well the answer is very simple. What is the colour of your glasses ? With green glasses you will see Green, With red glasses you will see Red. It depends from where you see him. Form the foot of the hill or the peak of the hill. From each level his appearance shall be different. It all depends what your eyes can seen. He will be seen as God to some. When he is merged with/in the supreme hi is God. When he is among us he is a Guru. The Sower of seed.

Also remember the one who sows the seed is not necessarily going to came back for you. We always have several supreme spirits on the earth with us almost all the time. They can come and guide you in body form or in Sooksham sareer (bodyless form).

The more books you read, the more opinions you will have, the more confused you will be. At the end of the day you will have to take down and throw away this burden of KNOWLEGDE. Knowledge if not handled properly will give you the disease of EGO. Then Why carry it ?

Guru Fateh

Thanks much for your simple explanations. i have a few things to ask you, if you do not mind please....


Can you please throw some light on this in the context of Gurbani-

rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ] gurbani page-607

Can you please explain this again in the light of Gurbani...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach The more books you read, the more opinions you will have, the more confused you will be. At the end of the day you will have to take down and throw away this burden of KNOWLEGDE. Knowledge if not handled properly will give you the disease of EGO. Then Why carry it ?

Sadh Sangat Ji, knowledge is a very good thing. See what is happening with the lack of knowledge- Pakhandi babas are flourishing and looting the public so shamelessly. And leaders are sitting back(scared of being cursed by them) and doing nothing.

And you do not throw the knowledge away, you never will, but you will acquire spiritual wisdom with simran; simran that is done with a pure mind, along with unconditional love for God and unshakable faith in Guru/God.

One has to learn. Knowledge puts us in the way of wisdom. Wisdom is experiential. It is the truth one recognizes in the external world that already resides in the internal one. Wisdom does not need digesting, deliberating, debating or dissecting by doubt or reason. It breathes within you as calm surety and perfect peace.








i humbly apologize if i hurt anybody's feelings.

__________________
surinder

rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ] gurbani page-607

• By concealing, the jewel remains not concealed, even though one may try to conceal it.
• By concealing, the jewel remains unconcealed, unless he (Parmatma) wants it left concealed.

ijin ieh cwKI soeI jwxY gUMgy kI imiTAweI ] Please choose one and why?

(He who tastes it, alone knows, its relish, like a dumbman's taste.)

jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ]gurbani page-695

1. The universe that you see outside also dwells in the body; whoever seeks for Him, finds Him there.
iQru Gir bYshu hir jn ipAwry ] siqguir qumry kwj svwry ]
Please correct me if I am wrong. This is a very unusual task I have been given.
Sadh Sangat Ji, knowledge is a very good thing. See what is happening with the lack of knowledge - Pakhandi babas are flourishing and looting the public so shamelessly. And leaders are sitting back (scared of being cursed by them) and doing nothing.
My sentiments are with you on this matter. We (Sikhs), not only need to known where we stand but also should know where others are coming from. We need to learn how they strike so we can defend ourselves and can counter attack effectively. Hence my point to Kaur-1. We should not burry our head in the sand like an Osterich and hope that the problem will go away. Knowledge from that point of view is not harmful. If is necessary for our survival. As Sikhs we are also defenders of the faiths.


And you do not throw the knowledge away, you never will, but you will acquire spiritual wisdom with simran; simran that is done with a pure mind, along with unconditional love for God and unshakable faith in Guru/God.
I have to disagree with you here. Knowledge can give you wisdom but not spiritual wisdom. Simran is a widely misunderstood term. You cannot put two swords in one casing. Although these are two distinct routes can lead to the same goal post but not all are capable to following this path.
Knowledge gives you life. Simran leads you to death. And this death leads you to the ultimate death. If it is knowledge you seek then
jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ]gurbani page-695

Take that knowledge from inside. That is available free from the efforts outside. “Buy one get second for free.”
One has to learn. Knowledge puts us in the way of wisdom. Wisdom is experiential. It is the truth one recognizes in the external world that already resides in the internal one. Wisdom does not need digesting, deliberating, debating or dissecting by doubt or reason. It breathes within you as calm surety and perfect peace.
First define your journey and whose path you want to follow. You can go on scientific route like Buddah with Wisdom and Experientation. But at the end of the day you will have to empty your vessel of knowledge for the Guru to give you parshad. So why elongate your journey. Osho Rajnesh too took the long route. This point may be displeasing to the appetite of some.
Sikhism as I see is a default route to be one with the maker. Remain in “Prem” and you will not even know the distance travelled in your journey.
kbIr pRIiq iek isau kIey Awn duibDw jwie ]
BwvY lWby kys kru BwvY Grir mufwie ]25]
The other paths are there, for those, who dare dwell on them but, they are full of hurdles and hardships unless a “true” teacher/guide is with you. A true guide does not give you anything but takes away all you have. Either way you have to die.You have to first find a real Gem among many fakes. So why waste time die in love of God.
If ones feeling get hurt then one is yet to become Sikh of Our Gurus.
"Pehlan maran kabool, jivan di shad aas, hun sabna ki renka tabhi aaaeo hamre pass"

Respected Hai_Bhi_Sach Ji,

You mention now-

And in your previous post you said-
It seems self contradictory.

anyways


Satguru Parsaad-
ijin ieh cwKI soeI jwxY gUMgy kI imiTAweI ]
rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ]
gurbani page 608


Here Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Ram Das Ji is telling us about the qualities of a bhagat …

Second line clearly says that this jewel of Naam cannot be kept hidden—because the philosophy of life for this person is totally different from a sansaari.
This person is living in this maya and keeping himself/herself totally detached from it. No Iness is present in this person. Is filled with unconditional love for all. Is seeing/feeling/hearing God within and without. How all this can be concealed- be these qualities are possessed by a beggar or a king-you will be able to see them.

You further mention:

and in your previous post you said-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach

The twist you made here is very interesting.

Satgur Parsaad…

jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ] pIpw pRxvY prm qqu hY siqguru hoie lKwvY ]
The One who pervades the Universe also dwells in the body; whoever seeks Him, finds Him there. Peepaa prays, the Lord is the supreme essence; He reveals Himself through the True Guru.

So God dwells within us as well as all over.And Dhan Dhan Bhagat Peepa Ji is telling us that God is within and can be reached if we seek. Lord reveals Himself through the True Guru.
As well gurbani tells us over and over again-HE IS ALL HIMSELF- sBu ikCu Awpy Awip hY
Then bani tells us- THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GURU AND GOD.

My question to you is-How come sower of the seed is different than the guide?

We need to bring ourselves to a point where we see Him and only Him……


Satgur Prasaad
iQru Gir bYshu hir jn ipAwry ] siqguir qumry kwj svwry ]

Remain steady in the home of your own self, O beloved servant of the Lord. The True Guru shall resolve all your affairs. ||1||Pause||
Here Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji is telling us to learn patience and stay in faith, as HE(GOD) IS THE KARTA PURKH, TAKING CARE OF EVERYTHING. A sadhak does not worry about his/her affairs, as faith in God is strong enough and he/she has surrendered totally his/her body/mind/belongings to God/Guru. No iness is present anymore, it is Him and only Him…….


You mention:

A true sikh, does not sit in judgment of other religions, as you yourself said


a true gurmukh, respects all. as he/she see God alone within and without(Sargun Nirgun Nirankaar). indifference means there is presence of haumay(ego). and gurbani tells us


haumY nwvY nwil ivroDu hY duie n vsih iek Twie ]


You are contradicting your own words-
Then you mention-



Another thing I must say-
DEATH- death has to come first.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji has written all in Jap(JapJi).

In the first pauri Guru Ji says- We need to accept His Will(hukam).

In second pauri Guru Ji explains the Hukam further and tells us what happens by coming under His Hukam.-Ego dies.

In third pauri Guru Ji tells us that God leads us to walk on this path.

In fourth pauri Guru Ji mentions infinite love for God, Naam and Contemplation during Amrit Vela.




Sadh Sangat Ji death has to come first, until you kill this haumai, nothing is possible. Mind has to be purified.

Simran alone (without the inner cleansing) leads to SAHAS SYANPAA mentioned in japji sahib pauri 1. As this becomes just like a meditation that a sidh yogi does to acquire Sidhies.

And just to clarify one point-

i never said- ‘knowledge gives you spiritual wisdom’. not sure how you got that point.
Also when you are on this path, you do not drop knowledge, it comes to you. When the third eye opens, you perceive all the knowledge that is ever known. And once again..WE MUST BE CONSTANTLY CHECKING OUR EGO, THIS HAS TO BE UNDER CONTROL ALL THE TIME. Otherwise, no use.






Humbly i am only suggesting the truth, please forgive me.

__________________
surinder

Surinder Kaur Cheema ji
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.
Brothers and sisters of this forum. If you are going to read the contents of this conversation, then Please form your own opinions on this conversations. If your do not agree with my comments, feel free to call me a madman or a fool but do not get confused. I take no responsibility.

ijin ieh cwKI soeI jwxY gUMgy kI imiTAweI ]
rqnu lukwieAw lUkY nwhI jy ko rKY lukweI ]
gurbani page 608

The first line is the explanation to the statement in the second line. (Gurban is written in parables those who seek the truth shall find the answers within)
By concealing, the jewel remains unconcealed, unless he (Parmatma) wants it left concealed.
Only the one who have tasted the “Naam” knows the taste. The taste of “Naam” when it ripens, it drips on the tongue like a sweet Necter (This is the Jewel). It is only the taster that knows the taste but cannot explain it. Because his tongue is tied.
The “Dumbman” is excited, full of joy. This joy in him is trying to burst out. You can see it in him, the Jewel wants to show his glory but alas his posessers dumbess prevents the exposure. Guru ji prompts to us “Recite the naam and find the taste out for youself.
With due respect to you, this is the reason why I added the first line as a hint and asked you to choose one answer.
Please experience the taste and you shall find the answer.

The twist you made here is very interesting.

There is no twist. This is the very cause of confusion in ones mind. We take words out of context and then try to make sence out of it.

Satgur Parsaad…

jo bRhmMfy soeI ipMfy jo KojY so pwvY ] pIpw pRxvY prm qqu hY siqguru hoie lKwvY ]
The One who pervades the Universe also dwells in the body; whoever seeks Him, finds Him there. Peepaa prays, the Lord is the supreme essence; He reveals Himself through the True Guru.

This is an academics way of trying to make sense with words and without any realisation.

So God dwells within us as well as all over. And Dhan Dhan Bhagat Peepa Ji is telling us that God is within and can be reached if we seek. Lord reveals Himself through the True Guru.

Are you now not contradicting yourself here ?
The Guru gives you the “Gur” technique and you practise that technique and you DISCOVER God. We are the Gods. There is no second. sBu ikCu Awpy Awip hY

As well gurbani tells us over and over again-HE IS ALL HIMSELF-sBu ikCu Awpy Awip hY
Then bani tells us- THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GURU AND GOD.

This is where there is confusion. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GURU AND GOD and US (When you have realised it) We are all one and the same. There is no Duality.


My question to you is-How come sower of the seed is different than the guide?

Again taken out of context and from a different conversation but I will try to explain.

Think of the Farmer as the sower of the seed. Once the seeds are sown in the fields, the Farmer if he chooses to can send any one of his family members to go and tend to his crop. Those members are also his own seeds. As I had said, we have among us several higly spiritual beings who from time to time come to attend to us “The Crop”.


Satgur Prasaad
iQru Gir bYshu hir jn ipAwry ] siqguir qumry kwj svwry ]

Remain steady in the home of your own self, O beloved servant of the Lord. (Meditate and look within yourself, seek not outside)(Discover yourself)

The True Guru shall resolve all your affairs. (The Truth is within you and will resolve all your affairs) ||1||Pause||
Here Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji is telling us to learn patience and stay in faith, as HE(GOD) IS THE KARTA PURKH, TAKING CARE OF EVERYTHING. A sadhak does not worry about his/her affairs, as faith in God is strong enough and he/she has surrendered totally his/her body/mind/belongings to God/Guru. No iness is present anymore, it is Him and only Him…….



You are creating duality here

You mention:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach

The other paths are there, for those, who dare dwell on them but, they are full of hurdles and hardships unless a “true” teacher/guide is with you.


A true sikh, does not sit in judgment of other religions, as you yourself said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach

As Sikhs we are also defenders of the faiths.


a true gurmukh, respects all. as he/she see God alone within and without(Sargun Nirgun Nirankaar). indifference means there is presence of haumay(ego). and gurbani tells us


haumY nwvY nwil ivroDu hY duie n vsih iek Twie ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach

The other paths are there, for those, who dare dwell on them but, they are full of hurdles and hardships unless a “true” teacher/guide is with you. A true guide does not give you anything but takes away all you have. Either way you have to die.You have to first find a real Gem among many fakes. So why waste time die in love of God.
If ones feeling get hurt then one is yet to become Sikh of Our Gurus.
"Pehlan maran kabool, jivan di shad aas, hun sabna ki renka tabhi aaaeo hamre pass"


You are contradicting your own words-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach
A true guide does not give you anything but takes away all you have.

Then you mention-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai_Bhi_Sach
Pehlan maran kabool, jivan di shad aas, hun sabna ki renka tabhi aaaeo hamre pass……



The message here is, be serious if you want to follow the path of discovery. We are trying to discover ourself and not anyone else. Your consider there to be DUALITY. There is GOD and there is GURU. – There is only one and one only. As long as you keep creating barriers within yourself, you are the one who stands to loose. It is like a dog chasing his own tail but does not realise the tail his own. (An analogy only no offence intended here – Sincere apologies if offended)



Another thing I must say-
DEATH- death has to come first.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji has written all in Jap(JapJi)……………………….


Most of Jap(Japji) is a conversationwith Sidh Log. I wll not dwell into this you will get even more confused.


Sadh Sangat Ji death has to come first, until you kill this haumai, nothing is possible. Mind has to be purified.

Simran alone (without the inner cleansing) leads to SAHAS SYANPAA mentioned in japji sahib pauri 1. As this becomes just like a meditation that a sidh yogi does to acquire Sidhies.

We treat Kam, Krodth, Lobh, Moh Ahankar as enemies. As long as you treat them as so you can never conquer them. They are your best friends and treat them as frien