Was Guru Nanak God?

namjap · #**111** (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 08:36 PM

I had been wondering why Sri Harmandir Sahib has 4 doors - maybe we also need to re-define its meanings according to the whims and fancies of our inner manmat.

Harjas Kaur Khalsa · #**112** (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 08:58 PM

And what did Guruji do to his own son Ram Rai for changing a single word of Gurbani? And why to this day are descendents of Ram Rai under social boycott?

See, this is the problem with the philosophy of liberalism. It pretends to be openminded, but the philosophy contradicts Gursikh teaching. The wisest solution to any contradiction is to eliminate one's own manmat and try to conform to Gurmat Gursikhi. There are very good reasons why certain groups are under social boycott and we are not to be in communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth. Sikhism isn't a religion of unconditional love without discipline.

It's a very mistaken notion of kindness to think individually we have something to give these people. Guruji has to change their hearts and minds. We can't do it. Everyone has their own karam. But we can, by our actions, influence susceptible people to become favorably disposed to antagonistic sects and lead them astray from Guru.

Quote:

Sikh Rehat Maryada, Section 5, Ch. XIII, Article XXIII:
p. The following individuals shall be liable to chastisement involving automatic boycott:
1. Anyone maintaining relations or communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth including the minas (reprobates), the masands (agents once accredited to local Sikh communities as Guru's representatives, since discredited for their faults and aberrations), followers of Dhirmal or Ram Rai, et. al., or users of tobacco or killers of female infants
2. One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs;
3. One who dyes his beard;
4. One who gives off son or daughter in matrimony for a price or reward;
5. Users of intoxicants (hemp, opium, liquor, narcotics, cocaine, etc.);
6. One holding, or being a party to, ceremonies or practices contrary to the Guru's way;
7. One who defaults in the maintenance of Sikh discipline.

namjap · #**113** (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 09:10 PM

I would take the sakhi of Satta and Balwand to be more applicable in this discussion. Our Gurus are forgivers. Another one - 40 muktey. Bakhshan-haar. The world is already full of enough pain and agony. We can remind others of the good things - something which we can ponder/contemplate on ourselves.

Samrath Guru sirr hath .....
Shabad Guru, Surat Dhun .....
Satgur Mera Bemotaj, Sacha Saaj, Vadh Samratha, ....

aad0002 · #**114** (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by namjap

I had been wondering why Sri Harmandir Sahib has 4 doors - maybe we also need to re-define its meanings according to the whims and fancies of our inner manmat.

Sri Harmandir welcomes everyone from every faith. You are reinforcing your own earlier observation. Sikhism excludes no one. But Shabad Guru Sikhs may not want to stray far from the center of their own belief.

And I wasn't being argumentative. Sorry if that is how it appeared.

Harjas Kaur Khalsa · #**115** (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Our Gurus are forgivers.

Nothing is stopping anyone under social boycott from returning to the Sikh Panth. The moment they do, then they are a Sikh! But who can be forgiven who does not admit wrong and ask forgiveness? Social boycott is to create bhairaag in their hearts for Guruji. Maybe it will take lifetimes. When they are hungry enough they will come back to Guru.

Nothing is accomplished by our going against Guruji's hukam due to some mistaken ideas of openmindedness. It isn't kindness not to tell someone they are about to fall off a cliff. Why would you tell Naamdhari's that Jagjit Singh is really Satguru? That's like assuring them it's okay to stay far from Guruji. What kind of friend is that? What will you say to Guru at the darbar of His Court after you die? Because these people can't be saved with dedhari gurus. And a lot of them really suffer exploitation and bad things in these deras.

Quote:

The world is already full of enough pain and agony.

If people are drowning, and we are not Guru to save them, what is accomplished by our jumping in to drown with them? Trust in Guruji. Everything happens for a reason.

ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਿ ਖੁਆਇਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
saisaaree aap khuaaeian jinee koorr bol bol bikh khaaeiaa ||
The Lord Himself leads the people of the world astray; they tell lies, and by telling lies, they eat poison.
~SGGS Ji p. 145

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
dhukh dhaaroo sukh rog bhaeiaa jaa sukh thaam n hoee ||
Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.

ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
thoon karathaa karanaa mai naahee jaa ho karee n hoee ||1||
You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 469

aad0002 · #**116** (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur Khalsa

Nothing is stopping anyone under social boycott from returning to the Sikh Panth. The moment they do, then they are a Sikh! But who can be forgiven who does not admit wrong and ask forgiveness? Social boycott is to create bhairaag in their hearts for Guruji. Maybe it will take lifetimes. When they are hungry enough they will come back to Guru.

Nothing is accomplished by our going against Guruji's hukam due to some mistaken ideas of openmindedness. It isn't kindness not to tell someone they are about to fall off a cliff. Why would you tell Naamdhari's that Jagjit Singh is really Satguru? That's like assuring them it's okay to stay far from Guruji. What kind of friend is that? What will you say to Guru at the darbar of His Court after you die? Because these people can't be saved with dedhari gurus. And a lot of them really suffer exploitation and bad things in these deras.

If people are drowning, and we are not Guru to save them, what is accomplished by our jumping in to drown with them? Trust in Guruji. Everything happens for a reason.

ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਿ ਖੁਆਇਅਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
saisaaree aap khuaaeian jinee koorr bol bol bikh khaaeiaa ||
The Lord Himself leads the people of the world astray; they tell lies, and by telling lies, they eat poison.
~SGGS Ji p. 145

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
dhukh dhaaroo sukh rog bhaeiaa jaa sukh thaam n hoee ||
Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.

ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
thoon karathaa karanaa mai naahee jaa ho karee n hoee ||1||
You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 469

There is some profound thinking here. According equal value to all ways of belief may often be neither equity nor fairness. And as Harjas points out, one can even be harming others even when we think our motives are just.

namjap · #**117** (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 10:08 PM

Harjas Ji and Aad Ji,

I'm honoured to be in the company of Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji because she is a happening person. Her flow of info is remarkable. This is truly a learning zone for me.

I want to share this which I'll call painting a picture in one's mind.

We know everything is in HIS HUKAM. Many times when I read someone's post that inspires me, the same thought re-runs in the mind : if we are HIS children then what harm can come to us - with a fall we go unconscious but Soul never dies. Soul can't be harmed if we make HIS WILL our will. Truly, we are communication soul to soul even right now. Did I read this from a book ? No, I don't think so. It is the constant re-assuring of ourselves of the physical - being the centre of our being - that keeps the illusion alive.

Guru Gobind Singh defined Khalsa -

Bhai Inderjit Singh - Puran Jot Jage Ghat Me

Puran Jot Jage Ghat Mein, Tab Khalas Tahe Nikhalas Jaane.

Harjas Kaur Khalsa · #**118** (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 10:31 PM

Wow. You want me to fall on my kacherra. Any wisdom is Guru Sahib's...the errors are all mine.

Thank you Veer Ji for sharing lovely kirtan.

namjap · #**119** (**permalink**) 24-03-2008, 11:48 PM

"Deep within the self is the light of God. It radiates through the expanse of God’s creation. Through the Guru’s teachings, the darkness of spiritual ignorance is dispelled. The hear lotus flower blossoms forth and eternal peace is obtained as one’s light merges with the supreme light."
Guru Amar Das

The Teachings of Guru Amardas Ji by By G. S. Mansukhani, M.A., LL.B., Ph.D.

Archived_Member1 · #**120** (**permalink**) 25-03-2008, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by namjap

Aad Ji and Pk70 Ji,

Let me describe a little about 3 different communities living in Bangkok. I stayed in Thailand for 10 years and this is my feedback. Normally two types of Gurdwara Functions, one is the social gathering and the other simpler and more spiritually inclined sangat. These 3 communities, all wearing turbans are Mainstream Sikhism, Namdharis and Radha Soamis. They all go to each others worship centres on social functions. But Namdhari never goes to Radhasoami and neither do RS go to Namdharis for spiritual satsangs. Sikhs hardly go to RS or Namdharis' satsangs, but RS and Namdharis do come to Gurdwara for satsang and Katha/Kirtan sessions regularly.

What do you make out of this ? All I can say is that we, mainstreamers, are the most tolerant of all. I have personally seen Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji come to Gurdwara, matha-tek and sit amongst the sangat like a commoner and listen to lectures. Accompanied by many other Namdharis.

my ignorant opinion would be that bangkok is not the best place to make judgments on the entire Sikh quom, as the population is relatively small and homogeneous (most sikhs in thailand are of similar backgrounds - ie: businessmen).

let's hear observations about interactions between the communities in Punjab where the sheer numbers and greater diversity make the observation more useful.