Lineage of The Sikh Gurus

Dear all

I will start by saying I believe in the authority of The Ten Sikh Gurus and the present Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/33128-lineage-of-the-sikh-gurus.html

Whilst on another thread: "Ashamed to be a Sikh" (Post no 100 onwards... (Admin Edit: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-s...tml#post136387), I noticed another SPN'er raised a bold point about the successor ship of the Ten Gurus and whether or not any of this could be viewed as nepotism....not a word I like incidentally so I would like to ask SPN members to consider whether:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33128

1) There are some family ties between The Gurus
2) Whether these family ties had any influence on who was chosen

For most Sikhs, I would expect their answer to the second question will be an emphatic NO! but I have included the question anyway for the sake of completeness

With regard to the first question, I can see from other threads the point of whether or not the eldest son was next in line was raised....but for now, I would like to focus on the question of whether or not a family tie existed, irrespective of age

Again, this is a genuine query on my part and not an attempt to undermine the authority of The Gurus

I sincerely hope you will trust me on that point and no one will be offended by my asking this

I have included a diagram below picked up from the Sikh Wiki site and hope some may find this helpful

Thank you

 
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__________________
Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.(Dalai Lama)

I am posting the diagram separately for presentational reasons

I have also given the question a lot of thought. The conclusion that I came to is that nepotism is beside the point.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33128
Frequently I ponder the brilliance of Guru Gobind Singh ji in his decision to make Guru Granth the Everlasting Guru, and to make his khasla the guru on earth. Think of the political turbulence that surrounded him. Any individual human being so designated a Guru would be a target for assassination by Moghuls, or treachery by even his own associates. That would have thrown the panth into fatal confusion.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33128

Guru Gobind Singh liberated the panth when he vested ethical leadership in granth and panth. This means Guru Gobind Singh concluded that ethical principles should take the place of human personalities, and governing by consensus should take take the place of individual will. That was a very modern decision achieved at that time in few other places in his world.

We no longer have human gurus. Our final guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Therefore the question of nepotism has little relevance to the present. In the original thread sunmukh ji himself established that nepotism does not in and of itself lead to negative consequences in a business, or in a panth. For that reason, the history of gurus appointing family members seems more of a footnote in history than a looming theme.

Dear SPNAdmin Ji

Yes. as you have noted, clearly Guru Gobind Singh Ji had remarkable vision and foresight

You have also noted it is a question you pondered at some point in the past....

As you may have gathered, I am very much learning as I go along .....it is possible that questions you have considered already are new questions for me....

I hope you will appreciate that if I ask those questions again, it's because they genuinely are questions for me and not beating a dead horse!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33128

seeler9 ji

I respect what you said up above. And it is because of the need for background and context that I made my remarks. Let's focus on just this one paragraph.

Here is why I felt the need to make this point. The lineage of the gurus, along with the family tree you kindly posted in this thread, comes up periodically as a topic of conversation at SPN -- usually as one of 3 scenarios.

1. Someone posing as a Namdari Sikh sees fit to challenge whether Guru Gobind Singh really did intend to end the succession of human gurus.

2. Someone, actually a muslim getting ready to launch a daw'ah, begins this discussion to put Sikhs on the defensive so they will waste energy on protecting a principle that has already been settled.

3. Someone is trying to protect a claim that the either the descendants of Guru Gobind Singh (Sodhi family) or Guru Nanak Dev (Bedi family) have spiritual pre-eminence in the panth.

And as someone who has seen all three arguments rage from time to time, I stepped in. And it is fine if arguments rage. But I will continue to step in. If someone else can help out in that regard, naturally I will not repeat or be redundant.

Ok thanks for the heads up!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33128

And I am delighted to proclaim that I fall into neither of these categories!!!
rangesingh:

I am also very happy. This thread can in fact be one where a constructive discussion of the matter can take place. Let's see how things turn out.

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

The diagram posted by Seeker9 ji is very informative, and makes transfer of Gurgaddi very transparent.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33128
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33128

Looking at the tree on it's own and at nothing else at all outside, I personally would conclude that that there probably was nepotism from Guru Amar Das ji onwards. If the names had been say English kings, that is the conclusion I would draw.

However, nepotism is not necessarily destined to result in poor outcomes. It only means that someone is favoured, from offspring and/or relatives. When someone is looking to transfer control, and if one knows one's family intimately then it is not unwise in any way to pass control to someone in the family who can be fully trusted to manage affairs after the transfer, with great diligence. A great many number of family businesses transfer control in this way, rather than selling up and simply passing on proceeds of sale to one's offspring. The outcome is good for the transferor, for the transferee, and for the customers as they receive continuity of established levels of service.

Sikhs today have a most excellent and exceptionally wise, Guru - Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Guru ji is far wiser than most people. If sikhs need spiritual advice they will find it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and they will not want for such advice.

It is very much in the hands of sikhs to take advice from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and then follow it. They cannot change history, and if they are sikhs they cannot choose another Guru. Sikhs have one Guru alone and the Guru provides more than enough advice on spiritual matters. Many, if not most, people who claim to be sikh do not even try to follow all the advice of Guru Ji. If somebody chooses to ignore advice then that is their affair, and I would say their loss as well.

Sat Sri Akal

sunmukhi ji

This is the anniversary of the gurgaddi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, made everlasting Guru 2 days before the death of Guru Gobind Singh ji. Therefore,

I am going to politely request that "nepotism" no longer be under review. It has negative connotations. In today's usage the term refers to a business practice, and has relevance to the job, career track, and monetary gains that come from it. The contemporary meaning is

"Nepotism in the business world is the showing of favoritism toward one's family members or friends, in both economic and employment practices. The term "nepotism" is applied to the practice of granting favors or jobs to friends and relatives, without regard to merit."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33128

Read more: Nepotism http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/...#ixzz14cuJlDoU

If you are making the case that the gurgaddi was passed from one Guru to the next "without regard for merit" then what you are saying a) makes no sense and b) is undermining Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

It does not matter how many times you state at the conclusion of a post how fundamental Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is. You undermine your own claim and the Guru Granth itself when you start out by going on about nepostism.

Why?

If the gurgaddi was passed from one Guru to the next without regard for merit, then it was also passed to Guru Granth Sahib without regard for merit. All are merged into one. So Guru Granth is undermined by continuing with the nepotism theme.

Let this be the final time we have to discuss this here or on any other thread. I think you want to have the last word on this point. Unfortunately on this subject it simply is not possible.

Thank you.