Discussion On Naamdhari Sikhs

Dear all and Brither Naamdhari Sikh( username here on spn)



Iam strating this thread with reluctance as it should be my Naamdhari brother who should have done for the reason best best known to him he never didi it even on my two request

My Naamdhari Fellow have some complains with the main stream sikh ( also called Shabad guru/singh sabha by Naamdhari ) these are the few I can get fronm the 35 posts that he has posted here on forum . Resr he can add further and all can contribute to it


1) According to the information given by naamdhari sikh some people of there community have faced hate and physical abuse at hands of other main stream sikh .

Quote:

Our children, women and youth are being beaten, insulted and abused. Our Guru is abused and threats are being levelled towards Him. It is only by His Command that we are not retaliating. We are taught not to attack anyone, least of all our fellow Gurubhais and Bhens. We will refrain from escalating this violence. So I have turned to the net to see if there are any people of wisdom left within the Sikh community.

Written by Naamdhari Sikh

my view : Personally I have never seen it happening as first person but I still can imagine this happening where there are Radical Sikhs who are hate filled for everybody non sikhs BUT THEY DONT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY SIKH COMMUNITY AND WHAT THEY DO IS WRONG AND I KNOW MAJORITY WILL AGREE WITH ME . but this does not make all sikhs anti NAAMDHARI by default as my brither Naa dhari here thinks so this is limitation of his expereinces . personally I have naamdhari class mates in professional college an d nothin of such kind ever proped in my mind
And you message alos gives A warning tha the reason you are not retaliating is your guru,s command is that a warning or just the same violience that you claim to face from others?




2)

Quote:

Under the Holy umbrella of the Aadh Sri Guru Granth Sahib you are subtly being taught to hate, you are being taught that anyone who doesn't believe the Holy Granth to be 'alive and living' is insulting the Gurujis' Granth Sahib.

( written by Naamdhari)



My view : This is very cheap little thinking or view tha you have of main stream sikh and not reality and it shows the same behaviour ou complian about that you face
ME HOLIER THAN YOU . If you r revered Staguru is teaching you Gurbani than this does not make it best interpretation and the only interpretation for all those who don’t bekieve in Your Satguru
Again all Sikhs are not taught about hate as you presume as SIKH family now number in crores and there bound to variation in character of people also diversity in people even in main stream There are many sadhus in main stream and many sikh organisation LIKE TAKSAL, Sant Sampradas and many MAHA Purush in past and present that have taught message of love and peace and not HATE AS YOU Persume for all the Sikhs

So please be open to others and for a change consider a possibility of you also being wrong somewhere as just blessing of your Satguru does not make you infallible atleast in your observations and notions




3)

Quote:

Just as anyone who doesn't support Khalistan is not a Sikh? Can there be no other perspective?

written by NaamDhari Sikh



My View:

this is very Minority view you are talking about I don’t believe in it and many others I have interacted in past three years in online interaction also doesnot believe in such radicle views

Yes there can be many other prepective and already they exist also as part of main sikh stream


4)

Quote:

All of the views I have expressed on these forums are views on Sikhi that have been untarnished by the Singh Sabha movement, whose thinking was and is greatly influenced by Western European thought. .. And first there was the WORD is a passage out of Biblical text. To believe that your Guru is not to be distinguished different from God is an ancient Sanatan concept that comes down to us from time immemorial. The concept of Karam and 840,000 lives the soul has to migrate through was not invented by Guru Nanak Devji. Recitation of Naam was not invented by Guru Nanak Devji. These are concepts that were taught by God in the oldest language known to Mankind in the OLDEST scriptures known to mankind. Guru Nanak Devji came to this Earth in this Kalyug age (again a Vedic concept) to refresh Mankind's memory about it's origins and truth of Dharam. That Dharam which exists since the dawn of creation. The Dharam that has it's origins in the Land we call Bharat. Have shame when you speak of this holy land with venom in your minds. Bow your heads in honour when you speak of this land. if any one expresses any opinion that even slightly challenges your views you come out with all your guns blazing.

written by NAAMDHARI SIKH.




My View :
In my view you also need to do some homework here . Your view of having living Guru and that also in continuity with Tenth Guru Sahibans Guru Gobind Singh ji finds no takers in any sikh groups whether they are Singh Sabha or anti Singh sabha
Many groups I would like to mention here have very independent philosophy but are all one on this issue of shabad guru with there independent source and belief
( AKALI NAIHANG SINGH BUDAADAL
AKALI NIHUNG SINGH TARUNA DAL,
NIRMALA SAMPRADHA
UDHASI SAMPRADA
SANT SAMAJ
SEWA PANTHI SAMPRADA
DAMDAMI TAKSAL

All these sampradas have many views diffrent from SINGH SABHA and even there own rehats which vary significantly BUT ALL ARE ONE ON THE ISSUE OF SAHAB GURU WITH NO LIVING GURU and all these claim there inception itself from time of SRI GURU GOBIND SINGH JI MAHARAJ and their cliam is independent of each other soYOUR CLAIM OF SINGH SABHA BRAINWASHED BY BRITISH seems Childish and even can be taken as your Brainwashing done on purpose .


ALL the conceptts you are trying to mention above about Guru parmeshwar , continuity with snatan dharm is well taught in main stream as well so don’t take p=ride in your exclusive source of knowledge as AKAL PURAKH like to have mercy on all including us even if you think us wrong!






5)Now what Amounts to be offending when talking about SATGURU



In my view :
any body calling his satuguru and bestower of enlightment is not offending even if it is Satguru of Naamdhari

Any body who wants to use verse p=artly or wholly of Sri guru granth sahib for their spirtual expansion even if it means interp=reting it with guidance of there own guru does not seems to offend me

BUT any body claiming that their guru a are the SATGUR for whole humanity ( which atleast 20 such gurus I can count on fingers )then its their heasdache to convince 6 biilins of their fellow Humans
But saying that their SATGUR are in continuity of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Lineage IS OFEENDING TO BASIC BELIEF OF MANY ON THIS FORUM AND SHOULD BE AVIODED NOW AND THEN ON THIS FORUM Instead its validity could be disscused here in this particular thread

Quote:

So what would be the final solution for Namdharis? Gas chambers?

In my view : I would with all the good qualities that you and your faction have you place should be in every body heart and I don’t think that you need to change unless th AKAL P+URAKH wants so but you are most welcome to join main sream SIKHI with open arms with SHABAD Gurru as the GUIDE if it suits you

I hope this thread contuse further with inputs of all others on this forum and may help to solve some issues



Writing this many mistakes and also some of my thought might hurt somebody but believe me its noyt intentional and I stands to be corrected




Again I would say I respect cherish all sampadas including NAM DHARI for all the Good qualities and enrichment they provide to SIKHI and hop=e it increases in future






Jatinder Singh



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PrIdw kwl^ØI ijnI n rwivAw DaulI rwvY koie ]

We all have free choice to what we believe in and what path we follow.

According to the Sikh Rehat Maryada the problem with Naamdharis lies with the definition of who is a Sikh. Do Naamdharis get discriminated against? Probably. Sadly, no one should be abused for having a different belief. The problem lies with them self-proclaiming that they are Sikh and confusing the line that the Khalsa Panth has drawn. The mainstream Panth does not accept them by definition.

We could argue all day and night, with eloquence and even Gurbani. And this simple fact would not change. Naamdharis would still be followers of a lineage outside the 10 Masters. To regular Sikh, Naamdharis follow a differnt Guru, not the ShabadGuru. While Naamdharis may respect the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jiji, they don't hold it in the same reverence as Guruji as do regular Sikhs. For a regular Sikh to matathek to any other Guru than ShabadGuruji, he is turning his back on Sikhi. So it isn't a question about who is nice or mean or a bad Sikh or full of krodh or ignorant or whatever. It is the simple definition of who is a Sikh per the mainstream Panthic organizations, and Naamdharis not a Sikh, and because they do beadbi of Sikhi by this false teaching, they are not accepted as someone of another religion is. They are pakhandis. End of story.

DEAR NAMDHARI JI.

WHAT EVER YOU HEVE MENTIONED IN ALL YOUR CONCERNS IS TOTALLY CREATED BY THESE SO CALLED GURUS TO WHOME YOU FOLLOW.BUT WHAT HAS HEAPPENED IN ALL RELEGIONS SOME ONE TRY TO BE MORE POPULAR ONE WAY THE OTHER WITH SPREAD THIER OWN PHILOSPHY BY COPING OR JUST EASLY COPY OR STOLEN FROM THE GRANTHS OR BILBLE OR GITA AND START THIER OWN SHOWS. LIKE YOU ARE NAM DHARI SIKH. SO WHAT YOU STILL BELIEVE IN GURBANI AND GURUS

SO THERE WAS NO NEED OF RADHASWAMI OR NIRANKARI BUT THESE OFFSHOOT WERE DELIEBRATLY CREATED TO HAVE THIER OWN GROUP FOR MANY REASONS IN WHICH ONE OF THE IMPORTANT WAS RECOGNITIONS AND MONEY.

THEY ALL WERE WRONG TO LEAVE GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI AND ONE GURBANI WHICH WAS GIVEN TO ALL OF US BY BABA GURU NANAK DEV JI AND NINE FOLLOWING GURUS. WHY WE NEED MORE ALL KINDS OF NEW GURUS?. THAT IS WHERE THESE NEW GURUS CREATED A FRICTIONS AND DIFFERENCES,.

SAME THING IN MOSLIM WITH ONE PROPHET HAS SUNI KILLING SHIAT,CATHOLIC KILLING PROTESTENT AND SO MANY OTHER MAJOR RELEGION SUBDIVEDED INTO MAY. WHY BECAUSE THESE HUMAN BEING WISHESS TOO HAVE THIER OWN POPULAIRTY. GOD IS ONE AND RESPECT FOR ALL THE HUMAN BEING IS ESSENCE OF THE FAITH. EVERY ONE TEACHES THIS BUT HATERED BECAUSE THEY SPLIT FROM THE MAIN TREE.

I HOPE YOU ARE GETTING THE MESSAGE. GOOD LUCK. THE BEST THING IS TO ASK YOUR PREACHERS WHAT WAS THE NEED TO HAVE NAMDHARI WHEN THERE WAS ALREADY EVERY THING IS AVALIBLE IN GUR NANAK 'S PHILOSPHY.

JASPI

Dr. Khalsa, Jatinder ji

Your essay was in fact eloquent and thorough. It is good to read something that does not attack a different perspective, but instead analyzes that perspective in a systematic way. Before reading your information, all I had to go on came from Wikipedia and Naamdari web sites.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sects-groups-cults/15187-discussion-on-naamdhari-sikhs.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15187

Thank you

Respected all

Who can sort things out? This morning Sikh Naamdhari ji posted a message saying that he had already taken Jatinder ji's advice and had begun a thread called "Naamdhari is Sikhi". The only thread I can find is "Being Naamdhari is Sikhi" which was started back in February. Drkhalsa Jatinder Singh's recommendation was made only a week or so ago in March with the goal of getting the discussion onto a more constructive path. If "Naamdhari is Sikhi" and "Being Naamdhari is Sikhi" are the same thread then nothing has happened since February and nothing has changed. So far Sikh Naamdhari ji hasn't posted on this thread "Discussion on Naamdhari Sikhs" either. So, if I am missing an important point, I apologize sincerely. There is a good reason for starting over. A mutual exchange of ideas about Sikh identity, gurus and THE GURU, and related topics hinge on making a fresh start.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15187
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15187

So maybe someone can sort me out?

There is no mutual exchange of ideas. Naamdharis are pakhandis who follow a different lineage of gurus not accepted in Sikhi. they are not Sikhs, and because they insist to be so, they do beadbi of ShabadGuru Maharaj when they bow to dedhari guru. There is no discussion and no debate on this point.



"satguru" Jagjit Singh Namdhari receiving paycheck from CM Badal, SAD/RSS-BJP.


Why would any Sikh support this position of VHP? Why is the dedhari guru of Namdharis publically in the VHP-BJP-RSS camp as representative of a "sect" of Hindu society? Why is he participating in a fascist Hindutva organization with anti-Gurmat aims? Naamdharis are clearly Hindus. This is the end of discussion.

Harjas ji,

Two weeks ago, after offering my 2 cents in another thread in which Naamdhari became intertwined with a completely different topic, I concluded that I did not have the background knowledge to make sense of the discussion and withdrew for about a week. I may need to do that again. But before I do,

Jatinder ji was offering Sikh Naamdhari an opportunity to make a fresh start because the conversation was turning into a tangled web. Was Jatinder ji taking the moral high ground, by inviting Naamdhari to debate his issues in a forum that welcomes debate? Looks like the moral high ground to me. Jatinder ji even started the new thread, after several requests that Sikh Naamdhari start the thread himself. Now we see that Naamdhari has not graced us with his participation. That should tell us something. Perhaps he does not want to have a discussion.

You on the other hand have been doing some heavy lifting by gathering evidence that doesn't favor the Naamdhari perspective. What is supposed to happen is happening-- those of us who want to be informed are being very well informed, by you.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15187
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15187

The purpose of a forum is to have a discussion, and you can see, we all can see, what in fact happened. It isn't that hard to draw a reasonable conclusion.

With respect

He is not debating. He is attacking Sikh belief to instill doubt in teachings of mainstream Sikhi regarding authentic Gurgaddi of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to promote dedhari lineage of "not Sikh" gurus politically involved with RSS-BJP-VHP.

Before tangled debates over issues of Gurgaddi, it must be noted this is an attack on accepted definition of Gursikhi. He does not say, "These are our positions as Namdhari." He says, "Namdhari is Sikhi." "My guru is your guru." Highly insulting positions not open to debate. Such positions make one "not a Sikh" according to Gurmat definition. Thus a Sikh could never agree to the terms. He is constantly begging for acceptance, yet in reality, his phraseology requires Sikh to become Namdhari by definition.

If you want to debate him, fine. Many resent this distorting of authentic Sikh beliefs. He does not say, "We as Namdharis believe..." You understand? This closes the debate, because his definitions are unacceptable. Sikhi is not about anyones personal opinions. If a Sikh does not already know who his Guru Ji is, how can he be a Sikh of the Guru? This is just a missionary platform promoting Namdhari gurus by undermining and confusing mainstream Sikh teaching. It is an attack on Sikhi, not a debate.

bhul chuk maaf ~ sorry to offend anyone.

Sat-Sri-Akaal

I am renegading on a comment I made yesterday that I would not post on this forum again after sister Surinder Kaurji deleted my reply to someone whose comments were derogatory. I was not abusive. All I did was to ask the gentleman to leave if he did not want to be educated on Namdhari Sikhism.

In Bhenji's eyes I was the guilty party because my views don't agree with hers?

Sikhi has evolved into it's modern version. A lot of our original concepts have changed for numerous reasons. Unless we explore those changes and the reasons behind them we WILL loose and, I believe, HAVE lost the way.

Harjas Kaur is a typical example of a Sikh who has become so engrossed in her own superiority complex that I am nothing more than an agent of the 'evil forces' out to destroy Sikhi.

How facist do her statements sound? Hers aren't statements made after dilligent research. She is merely repeating the hate propoganda of people who have nothing better to do than to stir trouble.

I must admit that I do get very angry when I hear people like sister Harjas Kaur talk.
I am not begging for acceptance . I was BORN a SIKH. I do not need to be accepted by anyone other than my Satguru. I am PROUD to be a Sikh of Satguru Nanakdevji through to Satguru Jagjit Singhji. I am PROUD to have learnt to read, sing Gurbani from Him. I am PROUD to have recieved His love and shelter from the corrupting forces of this Kalyug age. I do not wish to become a member of Singh Sabha or 'Guru Panth Khalsa', which are nothing more than political organisations.
Harjas Kaurji obviously does not understand what the Gurbani, as written in the Guruji's Granth Sahib, says.

My title for the post I started was deliberatlely chosen. But I can see that the message has eluded her.

Being Namdhari does not necessarily mean you have to become the Sikh of Guru Jagjit Singhji. You can be a Christian, a Hindu, Muslim, a Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahibji and still be 'Namdhari'. In another post I have defined what being Namdhari means.
Naam - the Amrit Manthr of God's Name. Dhari - the individual who embraces it.
Guruji tells us if we don't embrace Naam then we are nothing. Our whole purpose of existance becomes as futile as that of an animal. Being Human means we have been given the opportunity to meet a Satguru, to be blessed with Naam from Him, which then we must recite according to His instruction; only then can we, through His Grace, attain salvation.
That Satguru can be anyone who is Himself at one with God. This is not a Kuka concept. It is not my concept. It's what is written in Aadh Guru Granth Sahib. OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. If anyone wants me to quote I can. OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

'Sat Purakh jin jania, Satgur this ka Nao...' Aadh Guru Granth Sahib.
Please forgive me if I can't give you the page numbers. I haven't memorised those. Only the Gurbani.
In this verse it becomes abundantly clear that Sat Purakh and Satgur have become two seperate identities.

My original post still stands and I stand by every word I have written. I have and will give historical evidence and evidence from Gurbani to back everything I say. If people want to prove that what I say is anti Sikhi, then let them prove me wrong from Gurbani. This is a debate, not an attack on anyone. Let us not hide behind paranoidal attacks. I am not a member of the RSS. In fact I did not even know who they were until I discovered these forums!

I AM A SIKH. I HAVE JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO EXPRESS MY VIEWS AS THE NEXT MAN/WOMAN. NOONES ALLEGATIONS ARE GOING TO DEPRIVE ME OF MY RIGHT TO BE WHO I AM.