Sau Sakhis: Prophesies or Myths?

Archived_member13 · #1 (**permalink**) 11-Jun-2010, 15:46 PM

the truth
*

Narayanjot Kaur · #2 (**permalink**) 11-Jun-2010, 21:27 PM

Gurveen ji

Guru Fateh! Some moderation issues if you would be so kind to address them.

Which vaar of Bhai Gurdas do you refer to?

Quote:

My Lord, it is strange that the people of Kalyug (dark age or the age of falsehood) have developed the attitude of a dog and they take pleasure in swallowing ill-gotten things. The rulers commit sins and those who a herdsmen, are killing the sheep themselves. The people being ignorant are not in a position to discriminate between truth and falsehood. Those who pose as benefactors are engaged in amassir wealth by fraudulent means. Love between man and woman based on money, they meet at pleasure and depart at will. The Qazi who occupies the seat of justice, accepts bribes and then pass injustice orders.

It will save time if I do not have to look this up.

Also, what is the source that you have for the authorship of Mangal Prakash, as follows:

Quote:

The writings in Poanta Sahib where operation Bluestar is mentioned by Tenth soverign King is " Mangal Prakash" where Guru Sahib prophesied events in India and half of it has become True and rest is yet to happen.

I am also having difficulty finding the connection between the verses of our Gurus and the topic under discussion. Guruji is not a book of prophesy to my knowledge.

Otherwise this conversation has been very interesting.

Narayanjot Kaur · #3 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2010, 01:28 AM

gurveen ji

Guru Fateh! and thank you for your quick reply to my question. However, it doesn't really clear things up. I only see you saying the same things using different words.All comments in blue are moderation comments. In black, they are my reactions.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sanatan-sikhism/30975-sau-sakhis-prophesies-or-myths.html

Prophesy is not part of Sikhism and is not consistent with Gurmat as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Prophesy was one of those things that Guru Nanak was trying to wean people away from because it is a source of superstition, ritual, fear, blind faith, and hocus pocus. Since Guru Gobind Singh was infused with the same jyote as Guru Nanak Dev ji, it is hard to believe that he would revamp things and indulge in prophecy.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30975

The Mangal Prakash and various other sources you mention are retrospective documents that reflect on the life of Guru Gobind Singh, as compiled and written down in later time. They do nothing to clear things up. The sau sakhis can be and are doubted to be historically accurate documents, and they are therefore doubted as valid. We have some very informative threads at SPN on this exact topic.

The discussion of prophesy in relation to 1984 has no bearing on the topic of the thread-- i.e., was the Akaali party giving back-end support to the Indian Government? That question should be answerable with more recent, authenticated material than prophecies coming from a questionable document. Forgive me, but we need to stay on topic and not confuse prophesy in Sikhism with what happened leading up to 1984.

And I am still wondering which varaan of Bhai Gurdas ji you have posted.

It is not important to thank me for my "view". They are moderation questions:happykaur:.

Narayanjot Kaur · #4 (**permalink**) 12-Jun-2010, 23:21 PM

Gurveen ji

Gurfateh! And thank you. If this is your clarification

Quote:

As I have said earlier prophesies are not part of Sikh religion but
as I have quoted a prophesy from Guru Granth Sahib ji, I don't why you are
ready to accept this fact and I don't beleive in prophesies myself if something is their it's a basic fact, turning blind eye on it, is something
we should be aware.

then there is no reason to include any part of the Sau Sakhis in this discussion. I am leaving the earlier references to prophecies and Mahal Prakash in place for now. If it comes up again then the comments will be moved from the thread as they fail to be relevant and are completely misleading. P/S you have still not provided the vaar from Bhai Gurdas that you cite.

maskinji · #5 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2010, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurveen1

Gurfateh Ji,

Thanks for you're views but I'll try my best to explain the History of Mangal
Prakash hopefully it'll make more sense about this topic 1984 and others.

History of Mangal Prakash is part of sau sakhis which was handed down to
Bhai Sahib Daya Singh ji and used to tell the abt sayings of Guru to Baba
Gurbax Singh ji Ram Kaur ( From the family of Baba Budha ji) Though Sikh
religion does not beleive in prophesies but here is the answer

Mangal Prakash

A prophesy of Sahib Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj

For the protection of the weak ,
the Panth was started
The Singhs will turn to them for help,
The rulers of the country will have no Dharma,
They will oppress it's people

God will become upset (at this situation),
battle will begin in Harmandar Sahib
Many outsiders will die ( Indian soldiers)
The Singhs shall display their pride of the Guru

A Khalsa will fortify the Harmandar Sahib ( Sant
Jarnail Singh Bhinderwale)
The rule ( of tyranny) will be a widow ( Indira Gandhi)
(Their will be so much killing that) the horses
blood will be soaked in ( Harmandar),
After being divided and going through many
struggles The Khalsa will eventually become reunited,
They shall again stand (as an army).

So this is the proof which links operation Bluestar of 1984 and I hope it
will start to make more sense. Our Guru Sahib didn't wrote prophesy but
didn't mean that they have no idea what is going to happen in fact they
everything and the above verses proves that Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa
Bhinderwale was predistened to come in this world.

Actuaaly you might not be aware their is one prophesy is given even in Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj the coming of Babar ( The Mughual invader)
and eventually defeat of od the Mughuls is prophesized by Guru Nanak
Sahib ji and proven to have been absolutely correct.

" Coming in seventy-eight ( 1521 C.E.) they will depart in 97 and then the
brave man will rise up. Nanak speaks the word of Truth, he proclaims the
Truth at this for it now the time for Truth". ( Sri Guru Granth Sahib)

Guru Sahib knew that other religions before Sikhi used the way of prophesies to convert people but in Sikh religion realization is given more
emphasis that's why their are not to many prophesies is not Included in Sikh scripture.

I hope it answers some of your're queries which others might have like way
of looking things to make beleive what you see and what politicans say
but Sikh and politics is inseperable because Akal Takth is supreme seat of
Sikh Dharam religion is discussed as well as it is nevrve centre of Discussing politics. But others should look that their is also a religious aspect that Operation bluestar was not made out of the blue their is more
to it what others might actuaaly think.

Regards

Gurveen Singh

Since I am using blue as my color for moderation, not personal posting, I have changed your font colors. Narayanjot Kaur

Gurveenji,

I totally agree that Santji being a true Gurmukh had divine sense faculty to foresee and understand things. He was a strenuous abhyassi of Naam-Simran. Now, These beliefs are utterly based on faith, and cannot be proved, evrybdy has his own eyes and a visualisation.

Also, If you have Mangal Prakash, it would definitely give all of us another view of Santji, which would be deeply appreciated.

SSA.

Narayanjot Kaur · #6 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2010, 01:27 AM

maskin ji

Forgive me for being a suspicious person. Too many years on the Internet has done this to me.

I have suspected for some time that you and guvreen ji may be working in cahoots. This bit evidence makes my suspicions stronger. You quoted a post by gurveen ji using blue fonts, in your comments above. Timewise, this occurred AFTER I had changed the fonts of Gurveen's post from blue to black. That is not a violation of TOS at SPN, but certainly a quaint development. Everything has now been edited and is black.

Along the same lines, any posting from this point onward about prophesy, Sau Sakhi's, Sant Jarnail Singh's prophetic powers, or Maha Prakash will be construed as an attempt to derail the conversation into a different direction.

For example,

" Coming in seventy-eight ( 1521 C.E.) they will depart in 97 and then the
brave man will rise up. Nanak speaks the word of Truth, he proclaims the
Truth at this for it now the time for Truth". ( Sri Guru Granth Sahib)

Guru Sahib knew that other religions before Sikhi used the way of prophesies to convert people but in Sikh religion realization is given more
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30975
emphasis that's why their are not to many prophesies is not Included in Sikh scripture.

BTW. You have not given the Ang for "they will depart in 97. And so you have tried to mislead SPN members because you have omitted that date associated with " they will depart in 97 and then the brave man will rise up."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30975

Ang 723, ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
aavan athatharai jaan sathaanavai hor bhee outhasee maradh kaa chaelaa ||
Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.

Such comments have nothing to do with Saint Jarnail ji, and further mockery of our intelligence will either be deleted or discussions will become a new thread.

Warning. Infractions to follow if this continues.

Narayanjot Kaur · #7 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2010, 03:06 AM

On another note, the Shabad that contains the words,

ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30975
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=30975
aavan athatharai jaan sathaanavai hor bhee outhasee maradh kaa chaelaa ||
Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.

begins on Ang 722 and ends on Ang 723. It is not prophecy but rather an historical shabad composed when Guru Nanak was imprisoned in Lahore, and was later to confront Babbar with the enormity of his cruelty.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #8 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2010, 07:39 AM

The Shabad quoted on Page 722/723 written by guru nanak ji Sahib is an EYEWITTNESS ACCOUNT of happenings that Guru Ji saw. It is HISTORY and not prophecy.

Those who seek "prophecy" to "authenticate" Guru Nanak Ji as a "prophet" are looking at the wrong place as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sikh Scritptures DO NOT subscribe to this. Prophecy as a proof of prophethood etc is a judaic/chrsitian/islamic tradition..NOT Gurmatt of Guru nanak ji.

Gurmatt gives ALL Powers to Akal Purakh..He can Pre-ordain..or CHANGE as and when He wills it...so actually NOTHING is "fixed" per se...example He can "pre-ordain" babar to invade India in 1525...and then He can also CHANGE it to any other date or even take away babars life or send him away to China in 1525..????..IN other words IF the Guru ji were to say in 1700 that Inidra Gandhi WILL Attack Darbar sahib in 1984 (as a prophecy)..then THIS TIES DOWN AKAL PURAKH to those dates and incident and THAT is NOT AS PER GURMATT !! although it may sound great for Guru Jis alleged "prophecies coming true ??....GURMATT is submit to HIS WILL. Period. Since ONLY HE knows His will...only HE can tell...

rangesingh:

:bluetu rban:

maskinji · #9 (**permalink**) 13-Jun-2010, 13:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur

maskin ji

Forgive me for being a suspicious person. Too many years on the Internet has done this to me.

I have suspected for some time that you and guvreen ji may be working in cahoots. This bit evidence makes my suspicions stronger. You quoted a post by gurveen ji using blue fonts, in your comments above. Timewise, this occurred AFTER I had changed the fonts of Gurveen's post from blue to black. That is not a violation of TOS at SPN, but certainly a quaint development. Everything has now been edited and is black.

Along the same lines, any posting from this point onward about prophesy, Sau Sakhi's, Sant Jarnail Singh's prophetic powers, or Maha Prakash will be construed as an attempt to derail the conversation into a different direction.

For example,

" Coming in seventy-eight ( 1521 C.E.) they will depart in 97 and then the
brave man will rise up. Nanak speaks the word of Truth, he proclaims the
Truth at this for it now the time for Truth". ( Sri Guru Granth Sahib)

Guru Sahib knew that other religions before Sikhi used the way of prophesies to convert people but in Sikh religion realization is given more
emphasis that's why their are not to many prophesies is not Included in Sikh scripture.

BTW. You have not given the Ang for "they will depart in 97. And so you have tried to mislead SPN members because you have omitted that date associated with " they will depart in 97 and then the brave man will rise up."

Ang 723, ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
aavan athatharai jaan sathaanavai hor bhee outhasee maradh kaa chaelaa ||
Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.

Such comments have nothing to do with Saint Jarnail ji, and further mockery of our intelligence will either be deleted or discussions will become a new thread.

Warning. Infractions to follow if this continues.

Narayanjot Ji,

on a lighter note, I guess you being a moderator can easily see if someone is working with secretive collaboration or not ?? Yes, I agree that the thread moved away from its context, but my response was solely based on the views. I guess it should not have been discussed in first place, since these talks are based on one's beliefs and publicly making statement cannot help prove it. Anyways, I respect the views of the SPN Member about this.

Also, the font color thing, I didnt get it clearly. I guess you mean to say that I changed the color of the font to blue explicitly to post. Well, if It is that, then Thats totally false. I reply in default settings as you must be having in the forum. If you mean else, Please clarify.

I must say, you are a strict Moderator. Text in Red and that too in bold. You must be mad at me !! Anyways, I am here to share my views in healthy environment and would strive to maintain the Decorum as stated by you.

SSA.