Sikhs Barred from Oregon and Pennsylvania Schools

You are right. Using the guise of so-called Christianity they are actually seeking to remove any sort of Spirituality from people's lives as much as possible. That way, they can be in total control. Rather Stalinist, actually.
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You too are Right, KulwantK ji!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/saldef/24950-sikhs-barred-from-oregon-pennsylvania-schools.html
What's worse for me, is that I talked about some of my more meaningful Spiritual Experiences to the wrong people, they decided that I must have been doing something Satanic - because these experiences did not make me 'more Christain' (but - merely! - more Dhamically Correct, instead!).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950
Even more insultingly yet, some of them have also stated that I must have been on some kind of an "Acid (LSD) Trip" - or that I'm Schizophrenic! - but then, I ask, who doesn't "Address God like they expect God to talk to them" when they Pray or Meditate; why is that 'Schizophrenic' just because they are too blind to see that their really is only one of them (God, that is) - even if other Cultures have portrayed the whole shebang differently.
It is THEIR OWN ARROGANCE that betrays all of us!
I tell them to, "Go! Look in the Mirror - what makes YOU any different from one of the quientisencial 'Taliban bad-guys' who you love to hate? I don't see any difference; because YOU 'Hate my Freedom' to not be a Christian as much as they hate your freedom to be one (according to the 'Official' Homeland Security Dept. Propaganda)!!!"
At that point, I'm "Talking Satanic" - so they shut off their ears, etc., etc..
Somes days it's very sad to be an American - even though we have all of these wonderful things that what we have; they're sad because, on such days, I meet someone who is looking at throwing it all away as some kind of a 'Good Idea' - which they most often want to do, simply because they don't have a clue about what I even mean when I say 'having the wonderful things that we have'.
Somedays I'd like to para-drop them into North Korea......see just how much they really like living in THE SAME KIND of Totalitarian State that they'd enforce upon us!
For our own Good, of course; why, how-so-ever would we get to Heave.....if they DON'T "Help Us!" (Note: I've been being very sarcastic for several lines now! Please DON'T take these things too literally!).

I thoroughly understand the sarcasm! Not to worry; I oftenly have the same reactions to the narrow-minded ones who would seek to impose their belief system on me.

I have been thinking about their actions for some time, and I think they act the way they do, political correctness and all, because deep down they are absolutely terrified.

Terrified of what, well, that could be a number of things! One thing they are terrified of is anyone who actually uses their mind in a creative fashion!

Yes, we can argue that Sikhs are mandated to wear the Kara, and Christians are not mandated to wear the cross, and so on and so forth. That is not the point.

The point is that your relationship with the Divine is your first, most intimate, most important and most all-encompassing aspect of your entire life, and if you make the choice to wear something - (yes, I know- Sikhs do not have the choice, so to speak, of whether or not to wear the Kara)- to celebrate and commemorate that, then that choice is your choice, it is up to you-it is not up to some beaureaucratic official as to whether or not you can or should. This is why I say it is ridiculous that the Sikh can wear the Kara but the Christian cannot wear the cross.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950

No, I don't think this is a Christian persecution complex thing at work here; I think the officials in question are savvy enough to realize they will get lots of unpleasant publicity heat on them if they try to say the Sikh cannot wear the Kara, so they are avoiding that one--for now.

There is an old saying: Once the camel gets his nose under the tent, you can bet the rest of him will follow. If these officials can get the Christian to keep from wearing the cross, how long before they tell the Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs they are not allowed to wear their items? I can guarantee you it would not be long at all.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950


Yes, we Sikhs are required to wear our Kakkars. On a personal spiritual level, how is that so different, in spirit, pardon the pun, but the phrase is applicable, from the Christian who feels so deeply about Jesus, he or she feels it is an important obligation for them to wear the cross? As for the cross being a grusome reminder, well, yes, it was the instrument of torture.

How many Sikhs, Christians, Jews, Hindus, and people of other faiths have endured grusome death and torture for their relationship with the Divine?

Isn't it interesting that there have been those ones who are so against people having their own relationship with the Divine that they are willing to perpetrate horrors upon them. Take a look at the numbers throughout history/herstory and what you will find is that the personal relationship with the Divine is one of the most powerful things in the world, and dictators and wanna-be dictators know that.

A very astute set of observations, KulwantK ji!
The only thing I can think of, in reply, would be to point out that we must never allow these more-than-just-judgemental types to drag us down to their own level - simply because they are afflicted by and/or unwilling to discard the kinds of feelings, fears, and twisted beliefs that you've so keenly alluded to!
One of us scolded me, because he thought that I was aying that Sikhism is not a 'progressive' religion; and though I was not 'dissing' the Sikhi - and he was thus overreacting to a perceived, but unreal, slight; I think there's a lesson here.
If ones desire to NOT break with Traditions - even ones as cherished as not cutting your hair or beard (I've adopted that one), wearing a Turban, etc. - are causing Pain, Strife, and Discord in the World around them; would it not be more 'progressive' - more 'compliant with the Gurus Teachings' - to reconsider the Wisdom of such an inflexible adherence to Orthodoxy?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950
Think about it!

JimRinX says:
I suppose the answer to that would hinge on how central the physical appearance of the Sikh is to Sikhi, especially the 5 Ks. There are those these days who believe they are unimportant, that we need only accept the spiritual, non-material aspects and should let the rest go, as anachronistic in the 21st Century.

I disagree. These are more than just props, they are our identity. Each of the kakkars has a deeply spiritual meaning and purpose and well as a material meaning and purpose. One of the most difficult asprects of living as a Sikh, for me, involves handling (with some adeptness) both the spiritual and material simultaneously.

There are some teachings in every belief system that cannot be tampered with. I live in a society that long preached greed as a virtue - and now that society is paying a heavy price for that. I live in a society that glorifies the ego and raises me-me-me-me first and always to a virtue. I live in a society where sexual promiscuity is the norm. I live in a society where many if not most children lack a father, having only an absent sperm-donor. I live in a society that glorifies cruelty and violence. I could go on and on. My religion teaches me to avoid these things as evil. Certainly I am caused a certain amount of social pain for attempting to not indulge in these vices. Sikhi would not be Sikhi if the teachings against these vices were dropped. I would put our roop in the same category. Only the individual can decide if the price paid is worth whatever is gained.

Additionally, being a visible Sikh helps in making the individual strong. I well remember my high school days with the catty, rude comments about my unshaved legs and armpits and my somewhat mis-shapened eyebrows. I made the decision to maintain my appearance, I admit, as much out of stubbornness as devoutness. But whatever the reason, it strengthened me.

As those who know me know, that strength was tested in the Delhi Pogrom of 1984. My husband, my 13 year old son and my pregnant-with-twins self had to make a choice. Do we literally "cut-and-run" or do we stay and fight and probably achieve shaheedi? The Sikh roop was so central to who we are, that all of us stayed and fought and of the five of us, only I survived in physical form.

I know many these days argue exactly as you do, JinRikX, and they certainly have a right to their opinuion and to live their lives as they best see fit. If we throw out the outward appearance of ourselves, the inward will, in many (most?) of us dry up until we are left only with a philosophy, not a religion and way of life. I see being a Sikh as a 24/7/365 commitment. If I am not willing to make that commitment, there are many wonderful things to do with my life.

Being a Sikh isn't one of them.

(If I have not offended some of you, then I've been too mealy-mourthed and should rewrite this.)

Chardi kala!

Mai Harinder Kaur

Mai Harinder Kaur ji
I can see your point; for though I've never personally been through anything as traumatic as the Dehli Pogrom (I do have some Dutch Jewish roots, lost a lot of Cousins to the NAZI Camps, and famillies like mine generally teach their children to prepare for 'the next one' by teaching us about the 'previous ones'), I would have - no doubt - been waiving my 'Sikh Flag High' (No Pun Intended; though I do like to wave my 'Freak Flag High' myself - if only so that the Hippie Chicks, with Hairy Armpits and Legs, will know I'm one of them!).
It saddens me to learn of your loses; just as it saddens me to have learned that the Mumbai Terrorists were retaliating against the BJP having destroyed a 15th C. Mosque - though it was only because of an open-minded Hindu (a Salon.com blogger) set up a posting about it, since CNN only wants WAR, WAR, WAR; and they're especially keen to leave out any details that might make Muslims look more 'Human' or, dare I say it, 'justified' in their actions.
This brings me back to my original point, though.
While you found - and find - Great Comfort in adhering to the 'Five K's'; it is both that adherence - and the adherence of those who attacked you (or the people of Mumbai) to a 'different' code of conduct/dress/ritual - that has set you at one anothers throats; because they so clearly define you as the 'hated other'.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950
I strive for World Peace through Understanding a Mutual Respect; and though it would be OK with me if everyone joined the Sikhi - or adpoted any of the Dharmic Beliefs, for that matter - I know that that is as unlikely to happen, as it would be wrong to try to MAKE THEM do so.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950
The more I, who started out a Catholic then became a Buddhist when I was 17, learn about Sikhism, the more respect I have for it's beautiful teachings - as they embody my own personal credo so well, that I will, from now on, always say that I, "Pave the Eightfold Path with bricks of Bodhi Dharma, Tao, Confucious, & The Wisdom of Guru Nanak!!!"
(Actually: I try to apply more wisdom to the task than just that - but then I'm such a bookworm!)
Finally: though I do not seek to judge or criticize you for how you chose to live, believe, or feel - as I cannot know your Pain (and I hope I never do!); I would, nonetheless, stress that while you, Mai ji, continue to seek solace in your Proud adherence to the 'Five K's' - that you also avoid, at all costs, the same pitfall that led those who harmed you so to see you as the Hated Other!
Actually, you being a Sikh, I probably didn't have to say that though; did I?
If you knew what the Christians - particularly the 'White Supremacists' ones - had done to me (they actually DID kill two people - one of them a Jewish friend of mine) over the last few years; then you'd be Proud of how, despite being encited to Violence countless times, strictly I Adhered to the Four Noble Truths!
But then nothing stymies a 'Bully' like the target who simply refuses to cooperate!

JimRinX ji,

I do think that Mai Harinder ji can relate very well to what you have reported. Very well.

And may have some words of wisdom to boot.

JimRinX Ji,

I see my dear friend Narayanjot Kaur ji wants me to add words of wisdom. LOL. I don't really have any right now beyond saying that it was neither our appearance as Sikhs with the 5Ks or even hatred of Sikhs that got us killed; it was the expediency of indira gandhi's Congress Party (political) with the aid of her (understandably) angry son, rajiv, that got us killed. Plus, of course, historically, the nehru/gandy family has always hated us Sikhs, as have many brahmins, as they see us as a a danger to their status in the caste system.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950

And the 5Ks are an integral part of being a Sikh and always will be. Without the 5Ks, we are simply not Sikh. How much do you know about the Miri/Piri (Temporal/Spiritual) interface which is at the heart of Sikhi? To me the 5Ks are the perfect example of that concept, the perfect intersection of Miri and Piri. (BTW, that has nothing to do with the young lady Miri on Star Trek who had such a fear of 'grups.')

I would like to hear the tale of the white supremacists' gross misdeeds. Please write about that. I assume that since you brought it up, you are able to write about it.

I have great respect for Taoism as taught by The Old Man; it has much in common with Sikhi in philosophy. Of course, Lao Tsu and his philosophy lacked Naam, which is the very soul of Sikhi. It's now a lovely summer Saturday evening and I'm done with "Deep Thoughts" for the time being.

And I will willingly die by torture or from boredom (sometimes harder to endure than torture) rather than remove my kakkars.

Chardi kala!

Mai

Mai ji
First let me warn you; some of the opinions that I'm about to express may irritate - even anger - many of you; but I'm compelled by my own personal relationship with the Divine One, to try and perform certain deeds that I agreed to at least try, in whatever small way that I might find to have been made available to me, to make happen.
The most Important of these deeds is to attempt to contribute to the Unification of ALL PEOPLE; by reminding everyone that we were ALL, at one time, A SINGLE TRIBE, with a single belief, a single pantheon, etc.; in the Name of Saving the Earth from our having been 'pooping where we eat' for far too long - as this can only be accomplished in such a manner.
And, you see, War, Strife, Conflict - no matter what there reason, purpose, or objective - all have way too Big of a Carbon Footprint!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950
Thus while I curse the British Cartographers who got YOU, the Kurds, the Marsh Arabs, the Palastinians, etc., into the MESS we're ALL IN; to harp on - let alone make war over - 'split milk', is an impulse we must all deny ourselves; even those who foment for 'Sikhistan Lost' (Surprised that a not-so-ignorant American even knows this stuff?).
Thus, now that you know just how 'Buddhist' my feelings are vis a vis conflict; who was really wrong? Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale or Indira Ghandi and the Congress Party?
Because I've always hoped that India would hold it together - for the good of all who call themselves Indians (I HATE the Partition! Look what it's brought us!); I'm going to (be Politically Correct ala SPN) and say that they both wrong, wrong, wrong - since it was people like YOU, Mai ji, who lost, while NOBODY who was invloved in the whole mess won anything at all!!!
As far as the 5 K's are concerned; I just re-read the Sikhipedia entry (I did study Sikhism before joining SPN; but it's all still rather new to me), and I once again see the Beauty in the Symbolism of these Customs; but then I've always, quite instinctively, felt it wrong to cut my own hair - despite the red-necks and their, "Was that a Man or a Woman....." BS!
Mines just comming back to shoulder length, after my having had Surgery to remove a Cyst from my Brain in 2007.
Piri/Miri actually sounds kind of strange - coming from Sikhs who are so adamant about their abhorance of a 'Priest Class'; but since Sikhism developed in a Monarchical World, and you wanted your Best and Most Enlightened to be Respected Leaders - again, the symbolism is appropriate.
But it's just that: symbolism. And symbolism is not worth Hating, Fighting, Killing, or Dying for!!! Neither are lines on a Map - especially not when, if the Earth DIES, the space between them will become unihabitable!
In the Sikh world, I know, fighting has often been unavoidable acts of self-preservation; so please don't think that I'm being overly critical; I'm mostly Germanic (Low), and to use a Star Trek reference of my own (The Andoran Ambassador), "My People are a very war-like people."
As for Tao; I've always believed that the all-infusing, all-aware, all-encompassing 'thing' that Lao Tsu was alluding to, is Naam.
Would not Naam - like a Rose, by any other name, not smell as sweet?
It's ALL Energy Fields, Mai ji; why, my right hand only fails to pass clean through my left one for the same reason we can't push the North Poles of two magnets together!
That God, Naam, Allah, whatever Exists - that it might have layed all of this out for the edification of us 'pupal souls'; it doesn't sound so unlikely when one looks at it that way. (I've been bantering with Atheist Scientists and Christopher Hitchens-types!)
As far as the 'Mighty Whities' are concerned....WHEW! That was a CLOSE ONE (they tried to get ME killed by Black People, by making it look like I killed a Mentally Retarded Black Girl!); and it's not over yet!
All this happened in 2003 - and I haven't really even begun to mess with them back; though, this time (I, and my Mom, started this fight in 1982!), with 'W' and (former USAG and former Ku Klux Klansman) John Ashcroft on their side - I may not get a very satisfying return from my counter-Klan attack efforts; as they've already raided my Personal Files and Safe Deposit Box to steal my (largely documentary) evidence of their own wrong-doing.
They may have even destroyed the evidence of my having gotten an Air Force SSgt Court Marshalled, in 1982, for trying to force me and his son (one of my best friends, at the time) to join 'The JUNIOR KKK'!!!
Damn the Patriot Act!!! I KNEW that if the Grandson of an unabashed NAZI sympathizer (Prescott Bush, Sr.) - not to mention a former Klansman as ODIOUS as Ashcroft - ever got ahold of that kind of Power, that there'd be hell to pay for anti-Klan, pro-Civil Rights activists like me!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24950
They hate me even more, because I'm White - like them! They say that, with my complexion and red beard, I'm their 'Model Super Human' (such recruitment tactics!); so I tell them, "SUPER, Maaaan! NOW, since you look up to me so; stop being such a bunch of racist red-necked jerks! Hatered and Violence are INFERIOR Traits, worthy only of Untermennen!" (Remember your friend, JimRinX, the next time someone calls you a 'Towel Head' - or a 'Sand N-word'!)
I haven't begin to litigate this - yet; so I'm going to leave it at that, for now - even though I KNOW that THEY already know all about whatever evidence that I have to use against them; why else would they have raided my Files?!?