Fate, Destiny, Pre-Destination, Likhia

What super posts, LuckySingh Ji!
I agree with you, there is something blocking us from putting 2 and 2 together. Every person is struggling or has struggled with this because that which hampers you and it also hampers each person. I see that which hampers us as Maya (ego is a part of Maya).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/38900-fate-destiny-pre-destination-likhia.html

My view is that Maya and the ego are the creation of Sat or God. I am using Sat to try to avoid the perception of an overlord. We seem to have accepted that Sat is everything. So whilst someone is under Maya's sway they are blind to Sat. They think life is about pleasure or aversion and they think they must act to get what they want or avoid what they do not want. Consequently, like it or not, they are moved by their self-will. There is no peace of mind because they cannot see a way out other than to act in their best interest (self-will). Because Maya and ego are creation of Sat, we can then say that it is Sat's will that some are blinded and some see. For it is also Sat's will that Maya and ego can be overcome.

When a person recognises that everything is the Sat, then there is no reason to seek pleasure or avoid aversion (based on a sense of self will), both come as they are both inherent in Sat. Everything is happening including the choices they make. They no longer need to fear as everything is happening to Sat, in Sat by Sat. Even choices can be seen as Sat’s choices being made through body and mind. The body and mind is also Sat (Created by Sat).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

So how does this work practically?

In my view a Gursikh goes about his or her day just as before, but the Gursikh knows that everything is Sat. Their body is Sat and can be compared to Sat's tool. Their choices are Sat, and can be compared to making choices for Sat. There can be a sensation of "I act" but it is known intuitvely that there is action and choices; some difficult, some easy, as Sat.

There is another way we can see this. When you are reading this you will hear your inner voice, similar to how you hear your voice when speaking to others aloud. That inner voice is really just memory or sound. Deluded by Maya we say "That is me thinking" when we hear the voice. Really that is thinking, and there is no me as such behind it. That doesn't imply nihilism or anatta but rather the ego is not doing the talking.

This is a very tricky topic and I hope my ideas don't complicate it further. If they do I am happy to readdress them with you all. Of course I would like to read your own views.

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ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ ॥

Sat sri akaal Embersji,
Thanks for your kind response, it is a very tricky topic indeed.
I think you have got the idea quite well !!

It makes you realise how easy it is for us manmukhs to misguide ourselves. If we try and look into other gurbani bearing this in mind, it all begins to open newer doorways !!

For Eg... just a look at '' Mann jithey jagjeet''
and you immediately realise that you can't just conquer your mind in a few steps, but it is an even more difficult process than you previously imagined. We have the whole illusion to deal with as well!!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

The maya and ego are all created by the sat, as you mentioned, and they are also what makes our characters. However, this whole character and illusion gets left behind completely when one becomes gurmukh and merges with the sat.

It seems like it is all created to make us what we are or become whilst in the creation.
A little like how in bani, it mentions all the world being a huge stage of a play that is directed and under the command of Sat or Lord. The ego and maya props give all the actors their specific roles.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

Even the laws of karma and physics are there to keep the illusion running.
It is such that we actors should realise where we came from and with who we were, before we merge back there for eternity. As once you do realise and become gurmukh, there is no other desire than to be back to the origin or mool.


It's been a very good and informative discussion for me.

Waheguru

Sat Siri Akaal LuckySingh Ji
This is good, I haven't considered Karma to be a part of the illusion explicitly but you are right. If we accept that Karma exists then the Gursikh is living out his past karma which is still yielding results. In other words he or she will still have a body which will need to be looked after until it dies naturally.

Whilst there is a body there is still interaction with the world, or the stage. To the onlooker, the Gursikh will continue to have a personality with preferences, choices etc, but in reality the Gursikh will know that it is karma ripening. This in turn adds to the illusion and, from the Manmukh view specifically, it will appear that there is no one who is different to themselves i.e. everyone will appear to be self-willed.

It is a kind of double bind, the poor manmukh sees only self-will. This helps us to understand one view on why some manmukh do awful things to innocent people, or get irritated and angry.

This thread has been very useful for me too and has answered some of my earlier questions. Thank you.

The following shabad of Guru Nanak sahib expresses the helplessness of Human beings as He does everything. Man may bum around every where But only that thing will come to pass as is pleasing to Lord. What is pre-ordained comes to pass as His Command is Supreme.

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਭਾਈ ॥
The created being acts as he is made to act; what can be said to him, O Siblings of Destiny?

ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੋ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਿਆ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ॥੧॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900
Whatever the Lord is to do, He is doing; what cleverness could be used to affect Him? ||1||

ਤੇਰਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਭਲਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
The Order of Your Will is so sweet, O Lord; this is pleasing to You.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਾਈ ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
O Nanak, he alone is honored with greatness, who is absorbed in the True Name. ||1||Pause||

ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
The deeds are done according to pre-ordained destiny; no one can turn back this Order.

ਜੈਸਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤੈਸਾ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥
As it is written, so it comes to pass; no one can erase it. ||2||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਦਰਗਹ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾਉ ਪਵੈ ਬਾਜਾਰੀ ॥
He who talks on and on in the Lord's Court is known as a joker.

ਸਤਰੰਜ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਕੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਚੀ ਆਵੈ ਸਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
He is not successful in the game of chess, and his chessmen do not reach their goal. ||3||

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਪੜਿਆ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬੀਨਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਮੰਦਾ ॥
By himself, no one is literate, learned or wise; no one is ignorant or evil.

ਬੰਦੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕਹੀਐ ਬੰਦਾ ॥੪॥੨॥੩੬॥
When, as a slave, one praises the Lord, only then is he known as a human being. ||4||2||36|

Thank you for the contribution, Taranjeet Singh Ji