Fate, Destiny, Pre-Destination, Likhia

Embers · #28 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 15:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

If hukam is natural law, then we have no choice but to follow it. I can't disobey gravity or I die. Wouldn't it make the science of physics the ultimate religion?

Nevertheless, I agree hukam is natural law, but isn't it also more than that? More subtle, involving human interactions? For instance, Guru Arjun Ji was accepting the bhanna (pleasure/will) of god by allowing the events to unfold as they did, but the events are not natural law, they are man made interferences.

Thought provoking post, Ishna Ji.
I think for some Science has become their religion.
In my opinion man is a part of nature, it is Maya which makes man think he is separate from God and nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

Also, how can anyone have a choice if their action becomes hukam for someone else? Is the perpetrator not acting as an agent of hukam, like a puppet?

I asked my Christian friend what she thought about fate/destiny. Her answer was that she doesn't use those terms, she uses 'God's plan'. God has a plan for her in life, but it is up to her whether she follows it or not. If she follows it, she fulfills her destiny. But she has a choice not to follow it and reap the consequenses.

I said, what if it's your destiny NOT to follow the plan? And with that, the discussion died

.

Could it be that it is also God's plan that we think we have choice?
In Indian philosophy there is an example of a goat, tied by a rope to post in the ground, the goat thinks it is free to roam but in reality it is always bound to the post (God's will).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

It appears the whole 'pre-determined' translation arises from trying to convey the sense that 'if you do X, they Y will happen'. For instance, taking the tuk Embersji cited:

Page 280, Line 13
ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕਾ ਧੁਰਿ ਹੀ ਪਇਆ ॥
किरतु निंदक का धुरि ही पइआ ॥
Kiraṯ ninḏak kā ḏẖur hī pa▫i▫ā.
The fate of the slanderer is pre-ordained from the very beginning of time.
Guru Arjan Dev

I think, from my very small knowledge of Gurbani, that it shouldn't say 'from the beginning of time' because that is confusing.

If the faithless slanderer gets around being faithless and nasty, then he's setting himself up for failure. If you set the pot of water on the heat, it is the FATE of the water to boil. If you refuse to do good deeds, it is your FATE right from the beginning of your endeavour, to miss out on Realisation. It is not pre-ordained by God since the dawn of time that there would exist Sam the Slanderer and he would slander and be nasty and die in loneliness. It is the natural course of events from the beginning of Sam slandering that he dies in loneliness.

I think the translations are the problem. gingerteakaur

I took this verse more lightly to mean that "if you continue to slander you will always suffer". So rather than a person being a Slanderer for ever it may mean that the fate of slandering will always be suffering and this has been pre-ordained from the beginning of time. Really a person may not always be a slanderer through their many lives, I feel God is merciful and people will change even their bad ways.

Best wishes.

harry haller · #29 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 15:25 PM

Quote:

Could it be that it is also God's plan that we think we have choice?
In Indian philosophy there is an example of a goat, tied by a rope to post in the ground, the goat thinks it is free to roam but in reality it is always bound to the post (God's will).

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji makes many points about the benefit of following God's will as opposed to your own. I think we have full choice, and my body bears the scars of the consequences of that choice.

The reality is that our fate is in our own hands, the end result is known only to Creator. In that sense, it is fated, but only in the sense that each action has its outcome already known, rather than being limited to a written single action/outcome.

We are free to choose whatever action we wish, be it our ego writing cheques that our bodies cannot cash, which results in moral bankruptcy and distance from Creator, to concentrating on love, compassion, understanding, contentment, which brings us closer to Creator.

The closer we get, the happier we are, the further away, the more we have to chase the dragon.

It is our choice, we make our own fate, the wise amongst us knows the outcome of each action, and plant seeds accordingly, the stupid, myself included, also know the outcome, but plant seeds for today, not tommorow

my opinion only

Embers · #30 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 15:33 PM

I like your view Harry Ji, you made an impression on me in an earlier post too.
Your joke above on the circles made me laugh!

I think that a person's view, where ever it falls on the scale between 'complete free will to complete determinism', is the right view for that person at that time in their life. And I am happy with that.

Embers · #31 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2012, 01:33 AM

I am sorry that you deleted your post, Ishna Ji. Although I am sure you know best.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/38900-fate-destiny-pre-destination-likhia.html
I thought your post was excellent and I read it but didn't have time to reply earlier. I will try to contribute something further to this topic in the comings days, as I think there is still a few things to cover, if no one minds (I am happy to be corrected).

Embers · #32 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2012, 11:31 AM

We will always have choice.
I think there is a sensation that Hukam implies we will loose our choice, or that because we have choices to make then Hukam doesn’t apply to everything.

I would like to share my understanding and learn from others based on that.

There seems to be a contradiction. The contradiction is between two types of verse in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Really there is not a contradiction but two views used interchangeably.

The two types of verses might be summarised as: 1) That everyting is Hukam and 2) that there is a choice to make which leads to be Gurmukh or Manmukh.

The contradiction is eliminated or becomes clearer in my opinion, if we tackle the two views of Indian philosophy then look at the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in light of those views with a few examples. We can then come back to Hukam and choice. The two views are:

1) The Absolute view, that of God being everything.
2) The Relative view, that of humans and our interaction

In my humble opinion the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji moves between both views, continuously painting a picture, forcing us to open our eyes:

Here is the Absolute view, from how God must see it:

Page 11, Line 12
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਵਰਤੈ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
तुधु आपे भावै सोई वरतै जी तूं आपे करहि सु होई ॥
Ŧuḏẖ āpe bẖāvai so▫ī varṯai jī ṯūŉ āpe karahi so ho▫ī.
Everything happens according to Your Will. You Yourself accomplish all that occurs.
Guru Ram Das

Here is the Relative view of how we see it, it tends to imply action and choice:

Page 23, Line 15
ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਲਿਲ ਆਪਾਉ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਣੀ ॥
इहु तनु धरती बीजु करमा करो सलिल आपाउ सारिंगपाणी ॥
Ih ṯan ḏẖarṯī bīj karmā karo salil āpā▫o sāringpāṇī.
Make this body the field, and plant the seed of good actions. Water it with the Name of the Lord, who holds all the world in His Hands.
Guru Nanak Dev

Here is an Absolute view followed by a Relative view in bold:

Page 35, Line 1
ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
सभ किछु आपे आपि है हउमै विचि कहनु न जाइ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900
Sabẖ kicẖẖ āpe āp hai ha▫umai vicẖ kahan na jā▫e.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900
God Himself is everything; those who are in their ego cannot even speak of this.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

If we recognise that we can start to see these two views: Absolute and Relative and how they mix or appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then we can start to see that there is not a contradiction but rather two ways of seeing things. This has the advantage that we can live life from either view (Absolute or Relative or both). We can make choices on the Relative view knowing that really everyting is God so really all we are doing is just as God permits based on the Absolute view. It is so because if everything is God then how would anything not be done under His command (Absolute view)?

I will post again on choice and how these two views explain Hukam and choice.

harry haller · #33 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2012, 15:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Embers

We will always have choice.
I think there is a sensation that Hukam implies we will loose our choice, or that because we have choices to make then Hukam doesn’t apply to everything.

I would like to share my understanding and learn from others based on that.

There seems to be a contradiction. The contradiction is between two types of verse in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Really there is not a contradiction but two views used interchangeably.

The two types of verses might be summarised as: 1) That everyting is Hukam and 2) that there is a choice to make which leads to be Gurmukh or Manmukh.

The contradiction is eliminated or becomes clearer in my opinion, if we tackle the two views of Indian philosophy then look at the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in light of those views with a few examples. We can then come back to Hukam and choice. The two views are:

1) The Absolute view, that of God being everything.
2) The Relative view, that of humans and our interaction

In my humble opinion the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji moves between both views, continuously painting a picture, forcing us to open our eyes:

Here is the Absolute view, from how God must see it:

Page 11, Line 12
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਵਰਤੈ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
तुधु आपे भावै सोई वरतै जी तूं आपे करहि सु होई ॥
Ŧuḏẖ āpe bẖāvai so▫ī varṯai jī ṯūŉ āpe karahi so ho▫ī.
Everything happens according to Your Will. You Yourself accomplish all that occurs.
Guru Ram Das

Here is the Relative view of how we see it, it tends to imply action and choice:

Page 23, Line 15
ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਲਿਲ ਆਪਾਉ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਣੀ ॥
इहु तनु धरती बीजु करमा करो सलिल आपाउ सारिंगपाणी ॥
Ih ṯan ḏẖarṯī bīj karmā karo salil āpā▫o sāringpāṇī.
Make this body the field, and plant the seed of good actions. Water it with the Name of the Lord, who holds all the world in His Hands.
Guru Nanak Dev

Here is an Absolute view followed by a Relative view in bold:

Page 35, Line 1
ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
सभ किछु आपे आपि है हउमै विचि कहनु न जाइ ॥
Sabẖ kicẖẖ āpe āp hai ha▫umai vicẖ kahan na jā▫e.
God Himself is everything; those who are in their ego cannot even speak of this.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

If we recognise that we can start to see these two views: Absolute and Relative and how they mix or appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then we can start to see that there is not a contradiction but rather two ways of seeing things. This has the advantage that we can live life from either view (Absolute or Relative or both). We can make choices on the Relative view knowing that really everyting is God so really all we are doing is just as God permits based on the Absolute view. It is so because if everything is God then how would anything not be done under His command (Absolute view)?

I will post again on choice and how these two views explain Hukam and choice.

wahkaur

My thoughts are similar, I think when you try and understand Creators thinking, you are always going to come unstuck, which is maybe why we have to rationalise our thinking and accept that we will only ever see the human point of view

Ishna · #34 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2012, 16:27 PM

Embersji, your eloquence is astounding. Thank you for taking the time from your studies to help a noob like me grasp at some understanding. kaurhug

Luckysingh · #35 (**permalink**) 11-Aug-2012, 08:50 AM

We have discussed Hukam, Destiny and Free-Will, with some great and informative posts by Embersji, Ishnaji and Harryji.

There is an angle that has been touched slightly, but not gone in too deep!
That is '' How do we put Hukam, destiny and free-will, ALL occuring simultaneously together ?'' or ''How can they co-exist together if Free-Will can be controlled by us and Hukam is the divine order ?''

In practical life, when is something ALL under Hukam and when is something completely self controlled or done by self-will for shaping and deviating the directions of our future ?
We try and think that favourable consequences and actions have been controlled by self-will. However, when we can't explain or understand something, then we blame others or we blame the Lord's Hukam (oh, it was the Lord's will and order that such a tragedy happened!!)

Gurbani teaches us the essence and how to live in a gurmat manner. It can help shape our mode of thinking and evaluating into a gurmat mode, providing we can feel the essence and feel the frequency of vibrations that the ShabadGuru speaks in.
In this manner, we may come to strong conclusions or understanding of such questions as in the above.
We can't always get answers or explanations from specific pages, but we can try and conclude from what is given throughout.
In our minds, we have vast information and teachings all scrambled that have come from the bani....ie.-a little from different pages throughout that have made their imprints in our brains all scattered around.

Saying this, I can't just put 2 and 2 together to give a straight direct answer to the above, but I can try and enhance our understanding of the matter.

So, here goes-

- We know from many references that we are under the stranglehold of Maya or the illusion of maya. This Maya that fuels our Ego and is itself fuelled by Ego, makes the huge obstacle in connecting with the Lord.

All the attachments, desires and love for worldly things help enhance our EGO, the me, me, me, me, me...........This EGO is what thrives in the ILLUSION.

This Ego also convinces us that we can do this, do that, like this, like that...........it does a fantastic job giving us the Self-Will.
All this Self-Will is only existent under the Illusion of Maya.

Along with other factors, this is what defines us as Manmukh.

If we could conquer and eradicate our very own Ego, then the Illusion of Maya would disappear, thus we would be free from our misleading self-will, and be Gurmukh.

When Gurmukh, you have no will or desire to be planning and shaping for an illusion, you are in the Now and Eternity simultaneously all under the Divine Hukam.This hukam was always present but not always evident.

To become Gurmukh by completely removing Ego and experience of Maya is not easy, but the total of 1430 pages all direct us this way. Therefore, if we start trying to define how to get there, our message won't even scratch the surface that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji breaks through.

There are many references in bani that quote ''The Self-Willed Manmukhs.''
This self-will is exactly what it is and says, it's all for the interests of SELF.
This self is perceived ONLY under the illusion, Once a Gurmukh, there is NO MORE Self.

....ALL is HIS...jo kich hai so therah..

Page 1081
Guru Arjan Dev Ji
ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ ਮਹਲਾ ੫

Mārū solhe mėhlā 5

Maaroo, Solhas, Fifth Mehl:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹਉ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਕੀਤਾ ॥

Ŧū sāhib ha▫o sevak kīṯā.

You are my Lord and Master; You have made me Your servant.

ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਤਾ ॥

Jī▫o pind sabẖ ṯerā ḏīṯā.

My soul and body are all gifts from You.

ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨ ਸਭੁ ਤੂਹੈ ਤੂਹੈ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਅਸਾੜਾ ॥੧॥

Karan karāvan sabẖ ṯūhai ṯūhai hai nāhī kicẖẖ asāṛā. ||1||

You are the Creator, the Cause of causes; nothing belongs to me. ||1||

ਤੁਮਹਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਤਾ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਆਏ ॥

Ŧumėh paṯẖā▫e ṯā jag mėh ā▫e.

When You sent me, I came into the world.

ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਏ ॥

Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāṇā se karam kamā▫e.

Whatever is pleasing to Your Will, I do.

ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਆ ਤਾ ਭੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਾੜਾ ॥੨॥

Ŧujẖ ṯe bāhar kicẖẖū na ho▫ā ṯā bẖī nāhī kicẖẖ kāṛā. ||2||

Without You, nothing is done, so I am not anxious at all. ||2||

ਊਹਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ ॥

Ūhā hukam ṯumārā suṇī▫ai.

In the world hereafter, the Hukam of Your Command is heard.

ਈਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਣੀਐ ॥

Īhā har jas ṯerā bẖaṇī▫ai.

In this world, I chant Your Praises, Lord.

ਆਪੇ ਲੇਖ ਅਲੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਝਾੜਾ ॥੩॥

Āpe lekẖ alekẖai āpe ṯum si▫o nāhī kicẖẖ jẖāṛā. ||3||

You Yourself write the account, and You Yourself erase it; no one can argue with You. ||3||

ਤੂ ਪਿਤਾ ਸਭਿ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਥਾਰੇ ॥

Ŧū piṯā sabẖ bārik thāre.

You are our father; we are all Your children.

ਜਿਉ ਖੇਲਾਵਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਖੇਲਣਹਾਰੇ ॥

Ji▫o kẖelāvėh ṯi▫o kẖelaṇhāre.

We play as You cause us to play.

ਉਝੜ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਵੇਪਾੜਾ ॥੪॥

Ujẖaṛ mārag sabẖ ṯum hī kīnā cẖalai nāhī ko vepāṛā. ||4||

The wilderness and the path are all made by You. No one can take the wrong path. ||4||

ਇਕਿ ਬੈਸਾਇ ਰਖੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਅੰਤਰਿ ॥

Ik baisā▫e rakẖe garih anṯar.

Some remain seated within their homes.

ਇਕਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਦੇਸ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ॥

Ik paṯẖā▫e ḏes disanṯar.

Some wander across the country and through foreign lands.

ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਘਾਸੁ ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਰਾਜਾ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਿਆ ਕੂੜਾ ॥੫॥

Ik hī ka▫o gẖās ik hī ka▫o rājā in mėh kahī▫ai ki▫ā kūṛā. ||5||

Some are grass-cutters, and some are kings. Who among these can be called false? ||5||

ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਨਰਕਾ ॥

Kavan so mukṯī kavan so narkā.

Who is liberated, and who will land in hell?

ਕਵਨੁ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਭਗਤਾ ॥

Kavan saisārī kavan so bẖagṯā.

Who is worldly, and who is a devotee?

ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਦਾਨਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਹੋਛਾ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਜੜਾ ॥੬॥

Kavan so ḏānā kavan so hocẖẖā kavan so surṯā kavan jaṛā. ||6||

Who is wise, and who is shallow? Who is aware, and who is ignorant? ||6||

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਨਰਕਾ ॥

Hukme mukṯī hukme narkā.

By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, one is liberated, and by His Hukam, one falls into hell.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਭਗਤਾ ॥

Hukam saisārī hukme bẖagṯā.

By His Hukam, one is worldly, and by His Hukam, one is a devotee.

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਹੋਛਾ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਦਾਨਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਧੜਾ ॥੭॥

Hukme hocẖẖā hukme ḏānā ḏūjā nāhī avar ḏẖaṛā. ||7||

By His Hukam, one is shallow, and by His Hukam, one is wise. There is no other side except His. ||7||

ਸਾਗਰੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਅਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਰਾ ॥

Sāgar kīnā aṯ ṯum bẖārā.

You made the ocean vast and huge.

ਇਕਿ ਖੜੇ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ॥

Ik kẖaṛe rasāṯal kar manmukẖ gāvārā.

You made some into foolish self-willed manmukhs, and dragged them into hell.

ਇਕਨਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਵਹਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਚੁ ਬੇੜਾ ॥੮॥

Iknā pār langẖāvėh āpe saṯgur jin kā sacẖ beṛā. ||8||

Some are carried across, in the ship of Truth of the True Guru. ||8||

ਕਉਤਕੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ ॥

Ka▫uṯak kāl ih hukam paṯẖā▫i▫ā.

You issue Your Command for this amazing thing, death.

ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਓਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

Jī▫a janṯ opā▫e samā▫i▫ā.

You create all beings and creatures, and absorb them back into Yourself.

ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਸਭਿ ਰੰਗ ਮਾਣੇ ਰਚਨੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਇਕੁ ਆਖਾੜਾ ॥੯॥

vekẖai vigsai sabẖ rang māṇe racẖan kīnā ik ākẖāṛā. ||9||

You gaze in delight upon the one arena of the world, and enjoy all the pleasures. ||9||

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ॥

vadā sāhib vadī nā▫ī.

Great is the Lord and Master, and Great is His Name.

ਵਡ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ਵਡੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਜਾਈ ॥

vad ḏāṯār vadī jis jā▫ī.

He is the Great Giver; Great is His place.

ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਤੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਹਾੜਾ ॥੧੦॥

Agam agocẖar be▫anṯ aṯolā hai nāhī kicẖẖ āhāṛā. ||10||

He is inaccessible and unfathomable, infinite and unweighable. He cannot be measured. ||10||

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥

Kīmaṯ ko▫e na jāṇai ḏūjā.

No one else knows His value.

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥

Āpe āp niranjan pūjā.

Only You Yourself, O Immaculate Lord, are equal to Yourself.

ਆਪਿ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਸਤਵੰਤਾ ਅਤਿ ਗਾੜਾ ॥੧੧॥

Āp so gi▫ānī āp ḏẖi▫ānī āp saṯvanṯā aṯ gāṛā. ||11||

You Yourself are the spiritual teacher, You Yourself are the One who meditates. You Yourself are the great and immense Being of Truth. ||11||

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥

Keṯ▫ṛi▫ā ḏin gupaṯ kahā▫i▫ā.

For so many days, You remained invisible.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

Keṯ▫ṛi▫ā ḏin sunn samā▫i▫ā.

For so many days, You were absorbed in silent absorption.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਰਗਟੜਾ ॥੧੨॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

Keṯ▫ṛi▫ā ḏin ḏẖunḏẖūkārā āpe karṯā pargatṛā. ||12||

For so many days, there was only pitch darkness, and then the Creator revealed Himself. ||12||

ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤੀ ਸਬਲੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥

Āpe sakṯī sabal kahā▫i▫ā.

You Yourself are called the God of Supreme Power.

ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥

Āpe sūrā amar cẖalā▫i▫ā.

You Yourself are the hero, exerting Your regal power.

ਆਪੇ ਸਿਵ ਵਰਤਾਈਅਨੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਠਾਰੁ ਗੜਾ ॥੧੩॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

Āpe siv varṯā▫ī▫an anṯar āpe sīṯal ṯẖār gaṛā. ||13||

You Yourself spread peace within; You are cool and icy calm. ||13||

ਜਿਸਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਜੇ ॥

Jisahi nivāje gurmukẖ sāje.

One whom You bless and make Gurmukh -

ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ॥

Nām vasai ṯis anhaḏ vāje.

the Naam abides within him, and the unstruck sound current vibrates for him.

ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਠਕੁਰਾਈ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਾ ॥੧੪॥

Ŧis hī sukẖ ṯis hī ṯẖakurā▫ī ṯisėh na āvai jam neṛā. ||14||

He is peaceful, and he is the master of all; the Messenger of Death does not even approach him. ||14||

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਾਗਦ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥

Kīmaṯ kāgaḏ kahī na jā▫ī.

His value cannot be described on paper.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥

Kaho Nānak be▫anṯ gusā▫ī.

Says Nanak, the Lord of the world is infinite.

ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ਹਾਥਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਕੈ ਨੇਬੇੜਾ ॥੧੫॥

Āḏ maḏẖ anṯ parabẖ so▫ī hāth ṯisai kai nebeṛā. ||15||

In the beginning, in the middle and in the end, God exists. judgment is in His Hands alone. ||15||

ਤਿਸਹਿ ਸਰੀਕੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਰੇ ਕੋਈ ॥

Ŧisėh sarīk nāhī re ko▫ī.

No one is equal to Him.

ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਬੁਤੈ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥

Kis hī buṯai jabāb na ho▫ī.

No one can stand up against Him by any means.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਚੋਜ ਖੜਾ ॥੧੬॥੧॥੧੦॥

Nānak kā parabẖ āpe āpe kar kar vekẖai cẖoj kẖaṛā. ||16||1||10||

Nanak's God is Himself all-in-all. He creates and stages and watches His wondrous plays. ||16||1||10||

I think the above should give a better understanding to the questions I and many others do question from time to time.

Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh

Luckysingh · #36 (**permalink**) 12-Aug-2012, 13:21 PM

Hukam is also the ultimate master and governer at the very top of the chart.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900
Destiny, fate and free-will are ALL situated beneath this on the chart and are all part of the governing divine hukam.