Fate, Destiny, Pre-Destination, Likhia

harry haller · #19 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 01:19 AM

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but see, as an Apatheist, I just can't grasp how you feel the need to not miss god. I fervently believe that regardless of whether or not there is a celestial dictator, my life just would not change in any amicable sense. So it is from this point that I conclude that I've just gotta keep moving forward and doing my thing. However I do appreciate your belief as you seem rather sincere.

As Sikhism does not, in my view, regard God as a celestial dictator, more of an invisible energy, a force, an order. And as I view God as completely non interventionist, and beyond requesting assistance, I am sorry to disappoint you but I find your writings completely within the realm of Sikhism as I understand it.

Harvir007 · #20 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 01:26 AM

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Originally Posted by harry haller

As Sikhism does not, in my view, regard God as a celestial dictator, more of an invisible energy, a force, an order. And as I view God as completely non interventionist, and beyond requesting assistance, I am sorry to disappoint you but I find your writings completely within the realm of Sikhism as I understand it.

Well Sikhism perceives god as a creator, we agree on this yes? Hmm, you may find my writings within the realm of Sikhism, but this is simply a matter of how you perceive the religion itself.

Ishna · #21 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 04:56 AM

If hukam is natural law, then we have no choice but to follow it. I can't disobey gravity or I die. Wouldn't it make the science of physics the ultimate religion?

Nevertheless, I agree hukam is natural law, but isn't it also more than that? More subtle, involving human interactions? For instance, Guru Arjun Ji was accepting the bhanna (pleasure/will) of god by allowing the events to unfold as they did, but the events are not natural law, they are man made interferences.

Also, how can anyone have a choice if their action becomes hukam for someone else? Is the perpetrator not acting as an agent of hukam, like a puppet?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/38900-fate-destiny-pre-destination-likhia.html

I asked my Christian friend what she thought about fate/destiny. Her answer was that she doesn't use those terms, she uses 'God's plan'. God has a plan for her in life, but it is up to her whether she follows it or not. If she follows it, she fulfills her destiny. But she has a choice not to follow it and reap the consequenses.

I said, what if it's your destiny NOT to follow the plan? And with that, the discussion died.

It appears the whole 'pre-determined' translation arises from trying to convey the sense that 'if you do X, they Y will happen'. For instance, taking the tuk Embersji cited:

Page 280, Line 13
ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕਾ ਧੁਰਿ ਹੀ ਪਇਆ ॥
किरतु निंदक का धुरि ही पइआ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900
Kiraṯ ninḏak kā ḏẖur hī pa▫i▫ā.
The fate of the slanderer is pre-ordained from the very beginning of time.
Guru Arjan Dev

I think, from my very small knowledge of Gurbani, that it shouldn't say 'from the beginning of time' because that is confusing.

If the faithless slanderer gets around being faithless and nasty, then he's setting himself up for failure. If you set the pot of water on the heat, it is the FATE of the water to boil. If you refuse to do good deeds, it is your FATE right from the beginning of your endeavour, to miss out on Realisation. It is not pre-ordained by God since the dawn of time that there would exist Sam the Slanderer and he would slander and be nasty and die in loneliness. It is the natural course of events from the beginning of Sam slandering that he dies in loneliness.

I think the translations are the problem. gingerteakaur

Luckysingh · #22 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 05:49 AM

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Originally Posted by Harvir007

Well Sikhism perceives god as a creator, we agree on this yes? Hmm, you may find my writings within the realm of Sikhism, but this is simply a matter of how you perceive the religion itself.

In sikhism, the core is ek onkaar, there IS the One, and there always was and will be.
Harvirji, I believe that you consider your life to be totally unaffected whether there is or isn't a god. I believe an apatheist does NOT deny such existence if any but denies that such a god can be or not be as it won't make any difference to them.

Therefore,I don't think that being an apatheist is in the realm of sikhism as in sikhism, knowing and having faith in the ONE is the core root of the religion.

I believe Harryji is thinking more on the lines that God is not a man in robes or a supreme being. He is a physical entity of some sort that is the source of all creation. When I say physical entity- it does not mean that he is composed of molecules like the rest of the universe,
but he is the sourceof every single atom or molecule as such.

Sikhi doesn't define any descriptions of god, but then you can imagine him
as you wish. The only thing that is clear is that when one may be less attached and more closer to him, then they Know and feel his presence much closer.

We can't follow sikhi teachings if we assume that there is No God and there is only us and what we can see.

Harvir007 · #23 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 05:55 AM

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Originally Posted by Luckysingh

In sikhism, the core is ek onkaar, there IS the One, and there always was and will be.
Harvirji, I believe that you consider your life to be totally unaffected whether there is or isn't a god. I believe an apatheist does NOT deny such existence if any but denies that such a god can be or not be as it won't make any difference to them.

Therefore,I don't think that being an apatheist is in the realm of sikhism as in sikhism, knowing and having faith in the ONE is the core root of the religion.

I believe Harryji is thinking more on the lines that God is not a man in robes or a supreme being. He is a physical entity of some sort that is the source of all creation. When I say physical entity- it does not mean that he is composed of molecules like the rest of the universe,
but he is the sourceof every single atom or molecule as such.

Sikhi doesn't define any descriptions of god, but then you can imagine him
as you wish. The only thing that is clear is that when one may be less attached and more closer to him, then they Know and feel his presence much closer.

We can't follow sikhi teachings if we assume that there is No God and there is only us and what we can see.

Precisely what I'm saying, I don't believe in a benevolent power so I myself don't see myself in the 'realm' of Sikhism. Well no, I don't deny because it's unwise to do so. I can't say with 100% conviction that I deny there is a flying spaghetti monster either.

Ishna · #24 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 05:58 AM

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flying spaghetti monster

I've seen this reference many times. Where is it from?

Harvir007 · #25 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 06:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Ishna

I've seen this reference many times. Where is it from?

Probably Richard Dawkins.

Ishna · #26 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 06:22 AM

Thanks.

I've been watching a series on TV where Richard and his team dissect animals looking for clues to their evolution, like how the whale has redundant thigh bones from when it used to be a land mammal and how the giraffe has metres of nerve cord because it's neck didn't used to be so long so even though the nerve just has to go from one part of the heart to another it got caught up with a bundle of nerves so now the signal has to go all the way up the neck just to come all the way back down again, haha.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

There is one moment in an episode (can't remember which one) where Richard actually says something like, 'what a strange design' or 'what a brilliant design' and his team start laughing at him because he said it without thinking, hehehe!

Oh look, I'm even taking my own threads off-topic now. Go me! cheerleader

Luckysingh · #27 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

If hukam is natural law, then we have no choice but to follow it. I can't disobey gravity or I die. Wouldn't it make the science of physics the ultimate religion?

Nevertheless, I agree hukam is natural law, but isn't it also more than that? More subtle, involving human interactions? For instance, Guru Arjun Ji was accepting the banana (pleasure/will) of god by allowing the events to unfold as they did, but the events are not natural law, they are man made interferences.

Also, how can anyone have a choice if their actin becomes someone else's hukam?is the perpetrator not acting as an agent of hukam, like a puppet?

I guess that would be true if there was an 'other' to be a puppet but no, it's all Creator in the soup. More later

There is the natural order of creation, that is what comes first after the initial creation- meaning after the order of God that created creation.
Now, this natural order is such that it can continue for eternity without any disturbances. Such as,. we have life cycles of every species and plant that can ALL be linked to one another. If these cycles had continued without interuption of man into this natural order then there would have been stable continuation forever, with life cycles simply cycling everywhere.

But, we don't have stability due to man interrupting this natural order.. I mean, we don't know when the next natural disaster will be and how many lfe cycles of species have been completely removed because of our behaviour.
This is only known and commanded under the Hukam, this hukam has had to change along with time from the intial creation. It changes to counteract the changes to the WHOLE creation.
Meaning that when we had creation at first there was the natural world order that was commanded by the initial hukam. When this natural order is upset and tampered wth, then the initial hukam has to change in order to keep the continuation.

I know so many people will not agree with this, because so many millions of lives are lost due to acts of God or nature.
-TRUE.. but I think we have to think of the whole universe in terms of molecular levels as that is what ALL of creation is composed of.

I'm pretty sure if someone has the chance to ask the Lord of how so many innocent lives are justified by a tsunami for eg. ..-Then I'm sure he could show you the balance sheets clarifying the whole molecular balance, it's interruptions and corrections.

NOTE- This type of metaphor concerning balance, give and take, accounts..etc...etc.. is very important in understanding the whole creation.
Guru Nanak Ji used the same metaphor when mentioning Chitr, Gupt and Dharamraj..etc. to explain to us that good deeds and bad are all accounted for with regards to the whole creation. There is a knock on effect with all these doings.
It doesn't mean that we face the Lord and then he reads the account given by Daramraj that was compiled by chitr and gupt. BUT, it is ALL about understanding the Universal concept and not anything about the ''staff'' in the Lord's office!!!- As there is no such office or staff from what I gather.
He is capable of ''playing'' all these roles as ONE.

Ishnaji, what you mentioned in the beginnig of your post about there being more than hukam such as the interactions by us..etc..
--YES, - you are correct and on the right track from what I think.
It is this change in order of hukam that comes after the changes caused by us in the Natural World Order.

If you understand what I mean by this, then you should also understand that ''karma'' does exist. This ''karma'' is regulated by our very interactions and actions that can in turn affect the Lord's Hukam. How he does it, which way he does it, is entirely upto him.

NOTE- my interpretaton of Karma has been mentioned elsewhere. It is NOT about setting yourself for your next incarnation or anything else vedic.
It is simply about the results from all your good and bad actions throughout time and how they affect others. Good karma does not been that i will be reborn as a maharaja.
But it may mean that if I am in a car with 4 others and we crash, then my injuries may be less because of good karma or my outcome may be better than if I had too much bad karma. Of course, this is will all be regulated under hukam, especially if none of us die.
But, the karma can affect the way we hande certain situations and outcomes.

...Above are only a fraction of examples, so if not clear, I will try to give more.

Sat Kartar