Dancing to Kirtan?

Kanwaljit Singh · #19 (**permalink**) 25-Jul-2012, 06:58 AM

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On the other hand I love to dance, I was a little shocked and surprised when Maneet-ji said that dancing is banned.. anyone else have more to say on this?

Dancing is not banned. But then I have not seen a Nihang Singh in blue chola and turban dance their hearts out

As far as dancing outside the Gurudwara Diwan hall is concerned, it is your own jurisdiction. Gurbani surely would influence it just like it does everything in our lives.

Luckysingh · #20 (**permalink**) 25-Jul-2012, 10:39 AM

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Originally Posted by ballym

Most people take a line of holy book and interpret it out of context or just literal meaning. Confusion about meat eating is one example.guru sahiban never wrote a rule book like ten commandments.
However, wholesome interpretation can lead to useful guide. The references to dancing / meat eating are not specific.
AKJ move their head in high speed. You yourself move your head in slow motion. I am yet to see a dead sangat where no one is moving their head with kirtan It is our acceptance of society pressure that stops us from getting up and dancing either slow or fast.
Another point is... where to put a stop. Someone may dance vigorously, others may accept only slow one.
What about distraction if some one gets up and dance.
One the same line if dancing is PROhibited then we are also supposed to chant as guru sahiban state . So if we are not doing one thing( chant) then what is stopping us to dance if someone gets inspired by Gurbani to dance( slow motion?) just put your self in Gurudwara where very musical gurbani shabad is going on. You can not stop moving your head. Otherwise you are dead wood.
Why females respond more to singing after the raagi and also have all gutkaas reading more than males? Are they less of a sikh?
It is all in your mind. If you like .... do it. Main point is it should not distract. If it does and you are still insisting that I want to do it. You do not love humanity and and are not Religious. That is the stopping Line I would like to draw.
just my rant. take the wholesome approach . You can not impose your ideas/ interpretation ( which comes out of chemical reactions going on in YOUR brain) on others.

Very solid point.
The thing is we are not dead and we all responsd to music, beat or a rhythm in some physical way, be it slight shake of head, tapping of fingers...or other slight 'MOVEMENT'...etc... BUT- we are not interacting or bothering each other when we do this. WE have to draw the line and STOP before it gets to the stage of movement that is interactive with others and likely to cause bother!!!!

I think if others wish to continue with this issue then we should switch to the other thread as mentioned previously. I just made my comment with reference to Ballymji's post.

itsmaneet · #21 (**permalink**) 25-Jul-2012, 13:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Ishna

Harry ji provided the reference with regard to devotional dancing. Itsmaneet ji said dancing is prohibited in Sikhi. One is saying dancing is not useful worship, the other is saying dancing is prohibited in Sikhi, i.e. Sikhs are not allowed to dance in any circumstances.

Gyaniji strikes moi as being the kind of gentleman who might do a little jig if the mood so took him without fear of divine retribution, if I'm not mistaken. cheerleader

cheerleader

Really, applying the same logic as applied to Harry ji's tuk to this one I'm about to post, Sikhs shouldn't be playing tabla and harmonium either!!

ਬਹੁ ਤਾਲ ਪੂਰੇ ਵਾਜੇ ਵਜਾਏ ॥
Baho ṯāl pūre vāje vajā▫e.
One may beat upon and play all sorts of instruments,
ਨਾ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੇ ਨ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਏ ॥
Nā ko suṇe na man vasā▫e.
but no one will listen, and no one will enshrine it in the mind.
ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪਿੜ ਬੰਧਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
Mā▫i▫ā kāraṇ piṛ banḏẖ nācẖai ḏūjai bẖā▫e ḏukẖ pāvṇi▫ā. ||6||
For the sake of Maya, they set the stage and dance, but they are in love with duality, and they obtain only sorrow. ||6||

Ang 121

It's not about the singing or the instruments or the dancing or any of this outward human STUFF that we do. It's about living a Gursikh lifestyle and focusing on Naam. Dancing can be a wholesome expression, fun, exercise, whatever. (Personally I never dance, because I have the coordination of a fish in a rowboat.. a la Elaine from Seinfeld...)

I look forward to Itsmaneet ji's clarification.

I think i got one word wrong 'banned' for which i apologize. I summarize of views on this thread as below -

1) Any sort of dancing is not allowed/ discouraged during Kirtan or in presence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

2) Further, I feel, a person dances to express his happiness & that happiness usually lasts for few minutes/hours/day ... thats it. Coz if that particula happiness is to last forever we can't expect that person to keep dancing all hid life.

In Sikhism, stress is always given on permanent happiness & not temporary that comes achieving some sort of Maya (Earthly Pleasurable Things).

If a person has got the devine happiness I don't thing he'll dance infact the happiness at that point is inexpressive & lasts forever.

Secondly, I have heard that a Sikh should always be lean in Guru whether is hard or good time & should accept the "Baana" of Waheguru. Whatever happens happens for good if such feeling comes in a Sikh he won't dance.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #22 (**permalink**) 25-Jul-2012, 16:39 PM

A SIKH is also "not allowed/discouraged" from WAILING LOUDLY at death..yet just go to any sikh house where a recent death occurred..and you can hear the wailing from a mile away...in DIRECT contradiction to GURBANI Command..Mere pichhay Matt rovsee...KIRTAN NIRBANN kario...DONT CRY LOUDLY..do Kirtan of HIM....so its a fact that most sikhs dont follow Gurbani per say...thats why many are now getting thier hands up..arms up..and bellowing loudly jaikaras..some even get up and dance in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji presence...(Would nay such do that in Queen Elizabeths presence if ever INVITED to a Royal audience ??? all know the answer..yet we call Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji King of the Universe..but we respect him less than a queen of an island...

:grinningkaur :

:grinni ngkaur:

mariposazul · #23 (**permalink**) 25-Jul-2012, 22:59 PM

I have not seen any Sikh dance during Kirtan. Just the way Kirtan is presented it moves you to sit and meditate and reflect. However, I have seen Sikhs dance (in an appropriate jovial manner) in other situations, such as weddings, etc.

In regards to 3H0, yes they do jump up and down when playing music, but not during Gurdwara. This is mostly seen during the Kundalini Yoga camps where most of the people attending are not Sikhs anyway.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/38828-dancing-to-kirtan.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38828

Kamala · #24 (**permalink**) 26-Jul-2012, 02:16 AM

Oh okay.. but I don't see how dancing bothers someone :P but do you think any Guru ji explicitly said it is not allowed..? And dancing is a sign of happiness for some.. so if youre not allowed to dance to it I don't see why you can smile to it or something similar.

Kamala · #25 (**permalink**) 26-Jul-2012, 02:19 AM

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2) Further, I feel, a person dances to express his happiness & that happiness usually lasts for few minutes/hours/day ... thats it. Coz if that particula happiness is to last forever we can't expect that person to keep dancing all hid life.

I don't think anyone is happy forever.. I also don't think people do kirtan forever so...

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #26 (**permalink**) 26-Jul-2012, 04:48 AM

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Originally Posted by Kamala

I don't think anyone is happy forever.. I also don't think people do kirtan forever so...

Thats simply becasue you dear sister (together with probably 99.9% sikhs also) take "Kirtan" to be that action of banging on a tabla with another banging the waja etc....Thats NOT "KIRTAN" per say...
REAL KIRTAN...and all the Gurbani Tuks quoted in this Thread about dancing, singing etc mean...LIVING LIVING LIVING...and LIVING is "done continoulsy" till we breathe IN/OUT that Last breath called Hum aadmi haan EK Dammii - we are AAdmi of ONE BREATH ONLY ( Breath gone IN and not coming OUT..we are DEAD...Breath came OUT..none coming IN...we are DEAD - so BOTTOM LINE as Guru nanak ji said is ONE BREATH is OUR "LIFE"
When a person BREATHES IN and OUT..each breath is lived as per GURBANI - the Universal TRUTH, loving the Creator/His creation, following His Laws,in PERFECT HARMONY with ALL -Nature, Environment, Creation...that my dear is KIRTAN - the SONG OF LIFE. GURBANI and the GURU instructed us to do SUCH NIRBANN KIRTAN....but we prefer the LIP SERVICE TYPE the external type...the showmanship type...and we get the wrong idea that a Mahaan/Huge/International/Gold Medalist/Live/Satelite Broadcast..Kirtan darbaar makes HIM HAPPY ??? its a travesty..Hes surely not pleased with all that electricity wasted, water wasted, rubbish created, air polluted, noise etc etc...He would much prefer if we each one of us in his her own way showed Love and compassion in many many ways possible..so that our DAILY LIVES go hand in glove with HIS NATURE and ENVIRONMENT etc.

2. as for being happy forever ??..Just look at GURU ARJUN JI...seated in his grandfathers lap (Guru Amardass Ji) and being blessed as "Ship of Hymns"...Guru Arjun Ji is just as Happy as when he was seated on the burning hot plate...the words that issue form His mouth in BOTH Occasions are the Exact SAME...I Beg of YOUR NAAM ONLY.
But IF it were ME or you in that situation..in the lap we would be soooooooooooo happpppppppppppppy...and on the Hot Plate ??? Thats hwy its said of us...an entire day spent in the company of the one we love seems like a second...an entire "second" in Church or Gurdwara or Masjid..seems like "Forever"..oh when will the Mass finish..oh when will the ardass be over..oh why is the granthi choosing such a longgggggggg hukmnamah...get on with it man and sitribute the karrah parshaad..we all got work to do you know....a 500 dollar bill on wine/dine at a fine restaurant with loved one seems just like notepaper..a dollar for a poor man on the street takes such a long time to emerge form our wallet...PERCEPTION is the KEY !!! A one legged man is "Happy"..a two legged man is UNHAPPY ..becasue he cnat get the designer shoes he saw in the shopfront yesterday...The slumdog is happy in his shack of cardboard by the side of the dirty smelly drain full of sewage..Mikey was very unhappy in his multi room mansion spread over 1000 acres..GraceLand !! it all boils down to PERCEPTION !!

Archived_member15 · #27 (**permalink**) 26-Jul-2012, 05:38 AM

I always find it to be immensely comforting to think that, all around the world human beings - of various races, religions and cultures - in a whole multitude of diverse languages, are singing praise to God - to the Name with sweet melodies and their own national instruments. For as Blessed Jan Van Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381)said, "By reason of his common love, which God has towards all men, he has caused his Name and the liberation of human nature to be preached and revealed to the uttermost parts of the earth".

Kirtan interests me very much. I have always been fond of the use of musical instruments and chants during religious services. It made me ponder on the question of kirtan in the context of the World Religions.

In the Catholic tradition the mystic Richard Rolle in England described chant (Kirtan) in the following wonderful manner (I wonder if some Sikhs feel the same way when doing kirtan?):

"...The highest love of God consists in three things: in burning fervour, in song, and in sweetness. And I, who am an expert, have found that these three are not able to persist for a long time without great quiet in spirit...I call it fervour when the mind is truly ablaze with eternal love, and the heart similarly feels itself burning with a love that is not imaginary but real. For a heart set on fire produces a feeling of fiery love. I call it song when already in the soul, burning fervour abounding, the smoothness of eternal praise is taken up and meditation is transformed into song, thought turns into song and the mind lingers in honey-flowing melody; in thrall to sweetest harmony...The soul in whom are met these three things I have been speaking of remains completely impervious...she continues to think all the time of her Beloved, rising ever higher, with her will unbroken, and her love stimulated...His heart is bursting with song, a captive...It is the nature of love to melt the heart. For sweet love and a devout heart so dissolve in the divine sweetness that the will of man is united with the will of God in a remarkable friendship. In this union there is poured into the loving soul such sweetness of warmth, delight, and song that he who experiences it is quite unable to describe it...."

- Richard Rolle (1290–1349), Catholic mystic

Read:

Quote:

Kirtan in the World Religions

Kirtan is the call-and-response form of chanting that characterizes...the fundamental religion of the age – the soul crying out for God as a means to reunite with Him.

Robert Gass, author of Chanting: Discovering Spirit in Sound, believes that ritual chanting is among the most universal of human impulses, as well as one of the first: “We have no recordings of the earliest humans,” he writes, “but when we encounter indigenous tribes who’ve had little contact with modern civilization, they all have sacred chants that their oral history traces back to their earliest origins. And if you look into creation myths from different cultures, in almost every case the world is said to come into being through sound, through chant. It’s in Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, and Native American religions. That’s evidence, in a way. The other evidence you can look at is young children: Almost all young children make up repetitive songs -- they lose themselves in the rapture of singing.”

In Judaism, the hazzan, or cantor, is a type of kirtaniya, directing all liturgical prayer and chanting in synagogues around the world. If no cantor is available, a less qualified “kirtaniya” is called in—known as the ba’al tefilah. This person then chants the prayers, and the congregation repeats his every utterance, as in a traditional kirtan. The basic practice comes from a principle found in the Bible (Psalms 150.4-5), “Glory ye in His holy name. Praise Him with the timbrel and dance: praise Him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise Him upon the loud cymbals.” If that’s not kirtan, what is? Indeed, one of Judaism’s greatest mystics, the Baal Shem Tov, might be considered the ultimate kirtaniya -- his very name means “Master of the Good Name,” and he encouraged his followers: “Chant, chant, chant!”

Jesus, coming from essentially the same tradition, taught his disciples how to pray: “Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.” This was the basis of early Christianity. In his Epistle to the Romans (10.13), St. Paul writes, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” Baptist choirs and church singers take this mandate to heart, often with marked enthusiasm, embodying the essence of Indian kirtan parties.

Calling on the name became a formal part of the Roman Catholic Church during the days of Pope Gregory I (circa 540–604 C.E.). Even so, the Gregorian chant is only one of many, with the Christian tradition claiming hundreds of thousands of “mantras” -- which are often recited in responsorial fashion, like kirtan. Along similar lines, Christian mystics have given the world the Jesus Prayer -- “Lord Jesus, son of God, have mercy on me” -- a continuous mantra-like incantation whose practice resembles japa, repetitive rosary chanting, in the mood of Indian sadhus.

The Muslim Qari are those who professionally recite the Koran. In tone and passion they easily bring to mind kirtan singers. Though demonstrative singing is not generally permitted in mainstream Islam, chanting to Allah is, and it is viewed as a particularly effective form of prayer. In fact, the Qari are kirtaniyas whose chanting is called tajwid -- which is Arabic for “vocal music.” The ninety-nine names of Allah, called “the Beautiful Names,” are chanted on beads, inscribed on mosques, and glorified in countless ways.

In particular, the Sufis, Islamic mystics, seek to evoke God’s presence by uttering His names. This is called “Qawwali,” a form of sacred Islamic vocal music originating in Pakistan and India -- it is an art form or ecstatic ritual based on classical Sufi texts. One of its primary functions is to guide its listeners -- those who delve deeply into its poetry and meaning -- to a state of ecstatic trance (wajd), much like expert kirtaniyas of old.

In Japan, followers of the Shinto religion engage in ritualistic chants, known as norito, which is their version of kirtan. Buddhist hymns are referred to as shomyo. This is a form of kirtan as well. In India, kirtan is a way of life. Sikhs, for example, view kirtan as central to their religious practice, as any google search on kirtan quickly reveals. Naturally, all forms of Hinduism make use of kirtan, too, and this is true whether we’re talking about South Indian Ramanujites or Gaudiya Vaishnavas in Bengal; Marathi devotees who glorify God as Vitthala, or Devadasis who sing to their beloved Jagannath. Call-and-response chanting is the very basis of religion, and it was developed into a meticulously well-defined system of knowledge in India. It was this science that was inherited by the Hare Krishna movement.

Kirtan is the essence of yoga, a word that literally means “linking with God.” It is thus the essence of religion, too, since the root of the word religion is the Latin religio, which also refers to linking with God. According to most of India’s renowned sages, if yoga and religion are about linking with God, kirtan is the best way to facilitate that link. Here’s why. When you sing to someone, you develop intimacy with that person. In fact, such singing presupposes intimacy -- you generally sing to those who are near and dear. And the singing brings you closer, too. In this way, kirtan sparks something buried deep within the heart, gradually rekindling memories of an all but lost relationship with the Divine. And it accelerates that relationship, putting you in proximity to God, which, of course, is what yoga and religion are all about.

In Catholicism, traditionally, it is a more sombre affair ie with Gregorian Chant which tried to create an almost "otherworldy", ethereal, angelic sound. There is a point in such Chants called the "Jubilus". In the Bible Saint Paul described this supreme, spiritual climax in the chant metaphorically as being the "tongue of angels". To speak then in the tongue of angels is to be so ecstatic with prayer that one moves beyond words. This is because words bring God down to the artificial human level of concepts and thoughts. God is so far above our understanding and so sometimes we move beyond language all together and just praise him with all of our being, which manifests itself in a gibberish-sounding language that is quite wordless and apparently unintelligible because it comes from the heart and not from the rational mind.

Episodes of this are related by the Fathers. They called this "Jubilation" or in Latin the Jubilus, which came to refer in High Church Gregorian Chant to the moment when the monks singing stop saying actual words and lapse into an eerie sounding "Ahh-ah-ahh" you know what i mean, those heavenly-like elongated "a's" - wordless but heartfelt praise.

St. Jerome (347-420 A.D.) writes:

By the term jubilus we understand that which neither in words, nor syllables, nor letters, nor speech, is it possible to express or comprehend, namely, how much man ought to praise God. (Ps. xxxii.3)

And St Augustine (354–430 C.E.) comments on this phenomenon:

"...What is jubilation? Joy that cannot be expressed in words. Yet the voice expresses what is conceived in the heart and cannot be explained in words. This is jubilation...Where speech does not suffice… To manifest his joy, the man does not use words that can be pronounced or understood, but bursts forth into sounds of exaltation without words...they break out into singing on vowel sounds, that through this means the feeling of the soul may be expressed, words failing to explain the heart’s conceptions..." - St. Augustine (Commentary on Psalms)

We know that this practice of jubilation was widespread in the early church and continued for centuries. For example, the Benedictine theologian Rupert of Deutz (1075-1130 A.D.), spoke of the devotional prayer practice of jubilation that continued in his day:

We jubilate rather than sing, and extend a short syllable over several neums or groups of neums, in order that the spirit may be moved by the beautiful sounds

The standard form in Catholicism to express this "jubilation" became Gregorian Chant, which truly is angelic. Just listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYPFkjrkdno" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYPFkjrkdno

GREGORIAN CHANT-RELAXATION MEDITATION-Haunting spiritual emotional soothing human voice - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MbDqc3x97k" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MbDqc3x97k

Chant - The Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo De Silos - YouTube

Note the climactic moments when the monks stop singing with words and ascend to "wordless", syllabic sounds of great beauty to express praise for the ineffable, infinite, indescribable God for whom human language is too limiting.

Here is Amazing Grace sung in the style of Gregorian Chant in English:

Gregorian Chants - Amazing Grace (Beautiful Christian song & music) - YouTube

Apparently, there have been scientific studies which confirm that religious chant can be incredibly soothing and healing for one's mind. There are some that suggest Gregorian Chant to be the most soothing and calming sounds ever produced by humanity, with a noticeable lessening of tension and strain on the heart recorded after patients listened too and meditated with Gregorian Chant.