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Who is "Mohan"?

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 27-May-2012, 07:31 AM
Ambarsaria's Avatar Ambarsaria Ambarsaria is offline
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Re: Who is "Mohan"?

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Ishna ji thanks for your post. No worries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishna View Post
Ambarsaria ji, I'm not brave enough to share my understanding of shabads yet. I'm still in the groundwork phase where I'm learning around them myself, if I provide too much of my own thoughts in a public forum I think I run the risk of spreading misinterpretation. Many thanks.
Here is my understanding of the Eessence of this shabad,
Quote:
ESSENCE: In this sabad Guru ji almost dialog with the creator and use the metaphor regarding Mohan of a lovingly tempting creator. Singing praises as the power of attraction of the creator, the power of creator’s actions, the force that draws the pious towards the creator.

Guruji also describe how the contemplation, the visualization, the singing of virtues and seeking of support relieves one of the cares of death and brings comfort. It provides salvation to all and even those in the worst of shapes. Families, friends and all benefit in all this.

Guru ji in the final line of each stanza, in prayers request and dialog regarding visualization, saving of honor and salvation.
All errors are mine and I stand corrected.

Sat Sri Akal.



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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 27-May-2012, 08:37 AM
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Re: Who is "Mohan"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parma View Post
Mohan is a sanskrit word which can mean delightful, charming and attractive. So that word is obviously being used to describe that attribute of god, not a person! It is like using the word precious, some people in english call their children by that name it does not really mean that they are precious only that is a name attributed to them! (Will precious to the parents maybe) Like Singh means lion, it does not make you an animal!
Parmaji, I think you've nailed it spot on.
It's so easy to divert away, but this is probably the explanation that helps conquer the translations much better.
I did attempt my own translations trying to do word for word, but they didn't give me anything new or different, so I haven't posted them for this reason.

Well done!
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 27-May-2012, 08:49 AM
BhagatSingh's Avatar BhagatSingh BhagatSingh is offline
 
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Re: Who is "Mohan"?

Ishna ji,
Normally Mohan is the most common name for Krishna in Gurbani. Other common names include Gobind and Gopal, etc.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/38559-who-is-mohan.html

Quickly: Kanwaljit ji is correct. Krishna is called Mohan, the seducer, the enticer, when He seduces the Gopis, the village girls. They are fascinated by his dark form1 and flute2 and want to be His bride. Krishna's stories have led to a sort of Indian romanticism, where the Bhagat singers relate to Krishna as one of the Gopis, wanting to be his bride.
The shabads "mohan moh liya man mera"3 is part of this romanticism. This romanticism is also very noticeable in other parts, of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. E.g. when you read 'soul-bride' in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, this is what it's talking about, this is what's happening behind the scenes. The actual word 'sohagan' just means 'bride' but given the divine nature of Krishna and the divine nature of this relationship with the Bhagat, it is translated as 'soul-bride'.


Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38559

But Mohan in the shabad you have posted is referring to the eldest sahibzada of Guru Amardas ji, who took care of the pothi. If I remember correctly, he was in a state of samadhi and wouldn't pay any attention to Bhai Gurdas ji, who was sent first, and no attention to Baba Buddha ji who was sent after. Finally Guru Arjan Dev ji went himself and sang this serenade, thus attracting his attention to him, proving to the caretaker his humility and gaining respect as the Guru. Bhai Mohan came out and gave Guru Sahib the pothiyan after which Guru ji sang the 4th pauri blessing Bhai Mohan taht him and his whole family has been saved.

There's a bit more to it. Bhai Mohan being enlightened himself is (has become, merged with) Mohan as well. And you'll see both God/man, both Bhai Mohan and Mohan (karta purakh) being referred to as Mohan in the shabad. No need to separate them. Just as Satguru refers refers to God/Guru alike, so is Mohan in this shabad.

The fact that this serenade is to Bhai Mohan, becomes clear in the shabad quite early. Here:
ਮੋਹਨ ਤੂੰ ਮਾਨਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਜੀ ਅਵਰ ਸਭ ਰਾਲੀ ॥
Mohan ṯūʼn mānėh ek jī avar sabẖ rālī.
O Mohan, you believe in the One. Everything else is dust to you.
ਮਾਨਹਿ ਤ ਏਕੁ ਅਲੇਖੁ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਸਭ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀਆ ॥
Mānėh ṯa ek alekẖ ṯẖākur jinėh sabẖ kal ḏẖārī▫ā.
You adore the One Lord, the Unknowable Lord and Master; His Power gives Support to all.
ਤੁਧੁ ਬਚਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਆ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਨਵਾਰੀਆ ॥
तुधु बचनि गुर कै वसि कीआ आदि पुरखु बनवारीआ ॥
Ŧuḏẖ bacẖan gur kai vas kī▫ā āḏ purakẖ banvārī▫ā.
Through the Guru's (Guru Amrdas's) Word, you have captured the heart of the Primal Being, the Lord of the World.

Blessing:
ਮੋਹਨ ਤੂੰ ਸੁਫਲੁ ਫਲਿਆ ਸਣੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੇ ॥
मोहन तूं सुफलु फलिआ सणु परवारे ॥
Mohan ṯūʼn sufal fali▫ā saṇ parvāre.
O Mohan, you have blossomed forth with the flower of your family.

ਮੋਹਨ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੀਤ ਭਾਈ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਭਿ ਤਾਰੇ ॥
मोहन पुत्र मीत भाई कुट्मब सभि तारे ॥
Mohan puṯar mīṯ bẖā▫ī kutamb sabẖ ṯāre.
O Mohan, your children, friends, siblings and relatives have all been saved.

ਤਾਰਿਆ ਜਹਾਨੁ ਲਹਿਆ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
तारिआ जहानु लहिआ अभिमानु जिनी दरसनु पाइआ ॥
Ŧāri▫ā jahān lahi▫ā abẖimān jinī ḏarsan pā▫i▫ā.
You save those who give up their egotistical pride, upon gaining the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.

ਜਿਨੀ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਧੰਨੁ ਕਹਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥
जिनी तुधनो धंनु कहिआ तिन जमु नेड़ि न आइआ ॥
Jinī ṯuḏẖno ḏẖan kahi▫ā ṯin jam neṛ na ā▫i▫ā.
The Messenger of Death does not even approach those who call you 'blessed'.

ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਕਥੇ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
बेअंत गुण तेरे कथे न जाही सतिगुर पुरख मुरारे ॥
Be▫anṯ guṇ ṯere kathe na jāhī saṯgur purakẖ murāre.
Your Virtues are unlimited - they cannot be described, O True Guru, Primal Being, Destroyer of demons.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਖੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੇ ॥੪॥੨॥
बिनवंति नानक टेक राखी जितु लगि तरिआ संसारे ॥४॥२॥
Binvanṯ Nānak tek rākẖī jiṯ lag ṯari▫ā sansāre. ||4||2||
Prays Nanak, Yours is that Anchor, holding onto which the whole world is saved. ||4||2||


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2- page 998
3- page 1197
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 27-May-2012, 08:52 AM
Gyani Jarnail Singh's Avatar Gyani Jarnail Singh Gyani Jarnail Singh is offline
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Re: Who is "Mohan"?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains many "names" which the ignorant think refers to human beings....Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is ABOUT the Creator, OF the Creator and BY the Creator-Guru-Satguru - Bani GURU..Guru hai Bani..vich Bani AMRIT sareh. Unless there is a clear cut human reference - like the Ram who cried when he lost his wife Sita to Ravan...all these - Raam, Ravan, Sita, lazman etc are HUMANS....But not in other places where Raam means the CREATOR.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38559
Japjisahib04 made the most credible assertion that the GURBANI penned by and collected from various sources by GURU NANAK JI was such a Valuable asset that Baba Nanak ji kept this "precious book" by His side all the time(testimony of Bhai Gurdass ji when Baba nanak and baba Mardana visited Mecca the Mullahs called upon Baba nanak to .."open your book"..and read to us what you have written about Hindus and Muslims.... It was THIS BOOK of Gurbani thta was the Mark of Gurgadee and passed on to the successor GURU..when Bhai lehna Ji was ordained GURU ANGAD JI by Guru Nanak ji sahib. Subsequently This book with additional Bani by Guru Anagd ji was passed on to Bhai Amardass ji when He in turn was ordained GURU Amardass ji..and so on. By this time the Gurbani must have grown to be contained in possibly more pothis than one...and by the time of Guru Arjun Ji, the "Alternative Pretender GURUS lineage" was getting into the "act" and possibly corrupting/reproducing their own versions of "gurbani" ( Hence Guru Amardass jis clear WARNING to SIKHS in ANAND SAHIB on KACHI BANI/FAKE BANI/Bani sans the Creator/Guru/Satguru and for Sikhs to stay away/avoid such Fake banis)..that GURU ARJUN JI made the monumental decision to recompile ALL the Authentic GURBANI into the AAD GRANTH. This also became a necessity because Guru Arjun ji himself was a most prolific writer of GUrbani..( in fact Guru Arjun ji compares to Guru nanak ji sahib in terms of Bani/shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji). After the Shaheedee of Guru Arjun ji sahib and the difficulties of the child Guru Hargobind sahib being in Prison and his tender age etc..the Pretender Gurus lineage of Prithyi Chand his brotehr Mohan and their grandson Dhirmall etc did pen Fake Gurbani under Mahallas Chhevan/Satvaan ....when in fact Guru hargobind and Guru har rai ji never wrote any Gurbani (maybe that was done to help sangat distinguish the Fake Mahallas chhevan/Satvan). Later on Guru Teg bahdur Ji wrote a lot of Gurbani which was added to copies of the AAD Granth prepared in Guru teg bahadur jis presence and carry his signatures. Guru Gobind Singh ji Finalsied the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and gave the Gurgadee to the Form we have today as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 27-May-2012, 09:00 AM
BhagatSingh's Avatar BhagatSingh BhagatSingh is offline
 
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Re: Who is "Mohan"?

Ambarsaia ji,
That post is just false. There is no chamchagiri going on here. Just one enlightened man asking another enlightened man for the pothis by singing His/his praises to first get his attention.
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Old 27-May-2012, 11:19 AM
japjisahib04's Avatar japjisahib04 japjisahib04 is offline
 
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Re: Who is "Mohan"?

If I remember correctly, he was in a state of samadhi and wouldn't pay any attention to Bhai Gurdas ji, who was sent first, and no attention to Baba Buddha ji who was sent after. Finally Guru Arjan Dev ji went himself and sang this serenade, thus attracting his attention to him, proving to the caretaker his humility and gaining respect as the Guru. Bhai Mohan came out and gave Guru Sahib the pothiyan after which Guru ji sang the 4th pauri blessing Bhai Mohan that him and his whole family has been saved.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38559

S.Bhagat Singh Ji, Is it the ideology of gurbani to go into state of samadhi. When gurbani tells us to be awake and aware, 'savdhan ekagar cheet'.

Please read the last line of the sabd which is central idea and essence of sabd, 'beant gun tere kathai n jaey satguru kathai murarai - guru sahib is appreciating the virtues of satgur and not Baba Mohan.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38559

When we delve a little deep, we will observe Guru sahib is not referring to worldly family but internal family and internal world.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
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Old 27-May-2012, 15:36 PM
Gyani Jarnail Singh's Avatar Gyani Jarnail Singh Gyani Jarnail Singh is offline
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Re: Who is "Mohan"?

So long as we keep on treating Gurbani as "human"..we keep falling into the trap..whereas Bani GURU - Guru hai BANI - holds sway. We keep ignoring the obvious fact that a GURU couldnt possibly .."lose control" of the central issue of Gurbani - Gurgadee wasnt passed down via any topis or red tilaks on foreheads..or 5 cents and coconuts...Gurgadee was passed on when the Successor became Enlightened and OnE w th the JYOT of Guru nanak ji. Ordinary "seats" may have been (and still are) passed down by tying turbans, and tilakking the successor ( deras pass over this way and some Nihung Jathebandis also pass over such ) BUt the Gurgadee of Nanak was NOT passed down this way. So the Gurbani POTHIS were never with anyone other than the GURU.
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Old 27-May-2012, 15:41 PM
BhagatSingh's Avatar BhagatSingh BhagatSingh is offline
 
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Re: Who is "Mohan"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by japjisahib04 View Post

S.Bhagat Singh Ji, Is it the ideology of gurbani to go into state of samadhi. When gurbani tells us to be awake and aware, 'savdhan ekagar cheet'.
Yes, no doubts about this Mohinder Singh ji, not anymore.
That's what samadhi means, to be awake and aware, savdhan ekagar cheet. But not (just) be awake and aware of the world. We can do that easily in our daily life... well relatively easily, most people function at a very low level of awareness. But to be awake and aware of the God inside. This is much more difficult. This also enhances worldly awareness. So doing this, seeing God in oneself ie. samadhi, will allow an individual to see God in others. What is written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is revealed to be the practical Truth in samadhi. It is as if after listening to the shabad, the core of one's being touches this truth if it were an object that could be touched. For me it was less like touching but more like being hit by a wall. Hahaha at first nothing and simply lots of attempts, years and years of thinking and contemplating, then all of a sudden BAM! All doubts were cleared. Like Bhagat Kabir describes here http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gur...Page&K=333&L=8. This shabad can only be understood in Samadhi or not at all.

Anyway, as the sakhi goes after Guru Arjan Dev ji read the first Pauri Bhai Mohan tested him, said some harsh words, after the second pauri Bhai Mohan opened his doors, upon hearing the third, he came out with the pothi.

The sakhi has been with us for many centuries I would not discount on it based on some (flawed) personal logic.


Quote:
Please read the last line of the sabd which is central idea and essence of sabd, 'beant gun tere kathai n jaey satguru kathai murarai - guru sahib is appreciating the virtues of satgur and not Baba Mohan.
beant gun tere kathai n jaey satguru purakh murarai
I concede Guru Arjan Dev ji is addressing both in the same breath. He is playing on the word Mohan here. In India, an enlightened person is Rab Roopi, Image of God.
That verse reads, your many qualities cannot be described True Guru, Image of Krishna (Murarai = slayer of demon Mura = Krishna)

binwant nanak tek lagi jit lag tareya sansare
You have supported me, and through this support (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) the world will be carried across, liberated.

Now the reason why this is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is because it is also referring to the real Mohan, not just Bhai Mohan. Meaning outside of the context of the sakhi, and and in deeper reading like you suggest, we would conclude this is referring to Krishna and not some human. Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly believe this.


Quote:
When we delve a little deep, we will observe Guru sahib is not referring to worldly family but internal family and internal world.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni
I am well aware of how deep we can go here. As a general rule, with anything, the deeper you go, the more God you find. And this is shabad is clearly one of these cases.


Gyani ji,
Quote:
Gurgadee wasnt passed down via any topis or red tilaks on foreheads..or 5 cents and coconuts...Gurgadee was passed on when the Successor became Enlightened and OnE w th the JYOT of Guru nanak ji.
It turns out Gurgaddi was passed down via topis and tilak, and coconut as well as via enlightement.

That's Guru Amardas ji in a ceremony as he passes the Gurgaddi on to Guru Ramdas ji. Elsewhere I have read that during Guru Hargobind ji's ceremony, he asked Baba Buddha ji to put a turban and plume on him, instead of the traditional topi. History (sakhis and granths), Sikh art and preserved relics converge so much it is unbelievable.

Cheers

Last edited by BhagatSingh; 27-May-2012 at 15:46 PM.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 27-May-2012, 17:07 PM
Chinu's Avatar Chinu Chinu is offline
 
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Re: Who is "Mohan"?

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The word mohan is used for the thing which has captived the mind, That thing is Divine Sound.
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