Is It a Mirage? I Want to Merge with the Big Jyot.

Ambarsaria · #1 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2011, 11:22 AM

Quote:

The following once was a tree with leaves and branches,

Fundamental in lot of discourse is the concept of achieving a higher level of spirituality. Many a times this is translated as to “Merging of one as a small “Jyot” (light)" into something called a bigger Jyot or almost symbolically merging with the creator.

I believe it is just a useless mirage and perhaps a very sexy endeavor. Creator does not need your merging. Creator does not see you having un-merged. Creator only sees everything in whole creation; you, me and everything around as creation in continuous transformation. In simple human terms it is called circle of life where we are born, grow up, have families and then pass away into elements around while the lineage of our DNA and interactions may continue for a while. From creator’s perspective, parts of you continue to live visibly and invisibly while other parts just cross the species line (cremated and turned to smoke, steam, ash and elements) to intermix with the creation around. Only in our smaller minds and limited timelines is there a significance of our continuity. Beyond that we are just normally participating like everyone and everything as general transformational entity.

While alive, living with the creation in consonance will help you live well and achieve some of the potential of the associated transformational phase. Not doing so will simply not be as rewarding and many may not even notice the difference.

This is living in the will of the Creator and living with the creation around.

In conclusion, it is false of us to assume that somehow we un-merge from creator and creation. We simply don’t recognize our transformational phase and we are always merged with the creator and creation.

Above submitted with due respect.

Any comments!

Sat Sri Akal.

harry haller · #2 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2011, 12:26 PM

Ambersariaji,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/36582-mirage-i-want-merge-big-jyot.html

I noted this yesterday in a post you made where you mentioned that you would not be wafting to the heavens ready to merge with the big light. I remember thinking at the time, that it was a rational goal to have your chemicals go back into the big melting pot, and also a humbling statement, as if we are not judged, at all, by anyone, it makes your intentions and actions a bit more pure.

Before yesterday, I had the full options available to me after death, reincarnation, merging with the big light, being born as an ant, living up in heaven next to the creator and eating ambrosia rice pudding and looking down, maybe going for a celestial cup of tea with Bandaji, but now you have appeared to upset the apple cart, even in death one will be in consonance.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36582

I am do not know enough about what sikhism says happens after death, I have perused some threads here, but none are really conclusive, however, to embrace what you say, it only confirms an ideal that I have held close to me, which is that being in consonance with the creator will bring bliss on earth, not at death

Ambarsaria · #3 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2011, 13:11 PM

Harry Haller ji you are concluding very well in your last para above. Some comments on other para and its content,
[quote]Before yesterday,

I had the full options available to me after death, reincarnation,
- Not according to the Guru ji that saw the light 500+ years ago
merging with the big light,
- Isn't cremation that flashpoint
being born as an ant
- If one was dead and abandoned perhaps many insects will owe their whole creation to us in almost one piece, ant I am not sure off but won't rule it out!
living up in heaven next to the creator and eating ambrosia rice pudding and looking down
- You can do that anytime you are alive, I can send you a can of ambrosia pudding if none is readily available in UK
maybe going for a celestial cup of tea with Bandaji,
- May be you already had such a cup of tea but did not recognize
but now you have appeared to upset the apple cart,
- I have tried to right my apple cart at least
even in death one will be in consonance.
- Not all is lost at death as part of us,
  - continues virtually (memories, associations and consequential chemical reactions) in people and other such affected
    - In form if one leaves behind sons and daughters
    - Even cross species we prevail for a while through animals like our dog brother, cat sister and parrot buddy
    - Plants that one may have planted
    - Stones that one may have carved
  - Physically our elements transform and become part of many living and in-animate to be part of life again[/QUOTE]

Now let us revisit what mool mantar says about possible creator whose creation we partake in,

Quote:

ੴਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ArQ:- Akwl purK ie`k hY, ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY, (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[

God/creator is one and is known as the eternal being, the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own (God/creator) blessing.

I think the above said all that all along it is that I may have just started to understand bits of it. My comments I have checked, but others can be the judge to say whether, these are consistent with the creator that has been defined for us by our Guru ji but we may not always understand.

Quote:

What does become of our so called living state when death is not a discontinuity but a transformation? Who is afraid, hit the keyboard or hold your peace!

Sat Sri Akal.

harry haller · #4 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2011, 13:32 PM

Ambersariaji,

ok, the big key question, in a simple format, my dna may return to the big soup, but what about me!!!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36582

what is me, well, I suppose me are my memories, so what happens to my memories when I die

Ambarsaria · #5 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2011, 13:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Ambersariaji,

ok, the big key question, in a simple format, my dna may return to the big soup, but what about me!!!

what is me, well, I suppose me are my memories, so what happens to my memories when I die

Harry Haller ji I will find a post that was little cryptic that I wrote in conversation with Confused ji. But with your computer stuff we may be able to relate and see if we can clarify.

As you know partial matches of your DNA probably are percolating in many a pious and many a wolf, so DNA is taken care of.

Quote:

what is me, well, I suppose me are my memories, so what happens to my memories when I die

This question I tried to address in one of my cryptic post the gist below,

Quote:

However I want to pose for comment a variation on the one-to-one continuum. I illustrate it as,

Abbreviations:
· B(1) -> Birth 1
· D(1) ->Death 1
· L(1) -> Life 1
· K(1) -> Karma L(1)
· Note: I will arbitrarily classify state (1) as related to present life. So negative numbers will be past and positive numbers >1 will be future.

Example 1: Linear continuity of single Karma flow
-----------> B(-1), D(-2), L(-1), K(-1) ->B(0), D(-1), L(0), K(0) ->B(1), D(0), L(1), K(1) ->B(2), D(1), L(2), K(2) -------------->

Example 2: Progressive continuity of many Karma interactions and cross development

-----------> B(-1), D(-2), L(-1), K(w) -> B(0), D(-1), L(0), K(x) -> B(1), D(0), L(1), K(y) -> B(2), D(1), L(2), K(z) -------------->

In Example 2, I can understand and see that K(w), K(x), K(y), K(z) as composite Karmas built from linear in Example 1 as well impacted by your life linkages blood/genetic (physical but possible mental phenomena as well) and virtual (social/cultural/etc., mostly mental but some physical phenomena as well).

I believe Sikhism not being anti-Science could reconcile with Example 2 versus Example 1.

Note: Help in interpreting the above cryptic thought. Basically birth and death are just incidents in a continuum of creation. For humans we carry impacts of many before us and not just one (parents or relatives), we also continuously impact others directly and indirectly throughout our life, post death our impacts continue for the portions based on non-physical attributes of memories, interactions when alive, artifacts and like left behind. In a way like a soft ethereal stamp which will eventually fade with time unless some of the mediums survive (like books, other similar items), family tree continuity, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.

aristotle · #6 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2011, 14:17 PM

The word for the 'liberation' or 'merging' as you may say, is frequently referred to as 'Nirvana', or 'Mukti' in Eastern philosophy, if I may include Buddhist and Hindu philosophy in them. What we mean by the term is , as far as I can discern, that the human (lesser) jyot merges with the God (greater) jyot by 'Bhakti' (though no parameter specified...)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36582
In the Sikh philosophy (which is naturally distinct from the Eastern mysticism), the idea is expanded and rationalised. While the Eastern mysticism vies for 'riddhies' and 'siddhies' (both divine powers), the Sikh lifestyle aims at being one with the God. And the definiton is clear, The question is not of a lesser jyot merging into a bigger jyot, it is the question of realising the 'Jyot' already present in you, like the mixing of water into water, once the non-permeable membrane that separated them dissapears, although they were always in the same container. The realisation is grand, at once knowing that you have the jyot in you while at the same time not being the yogic 'ਸੋਹੰ' (I am God=dangerous, because it is full of houmay). The title is 'Jeevan-mukt', free from life, because no prejudices and no reservations are left about life. Such were those people who (the list of Sikh martyrs is very long...) presented their supreme sacrifice for the Panth, because they weren't 'attached' with their life, they were 'Jeevan-mukt'. Death is a natural phenomena, a 'soul' which is not jeevan mukt is given another jeevan(life), reincarnated into the world again,but sans the previous memories and prejudices(combined into a single term, the previous 'sanskaars') to complete its future, to be 'jeevan-mukt'. It is like a student being given infinite number of chances to clear an examination, the future of the student id to clear the exam, no matter how many number of chances he/she takes.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36582

I fear my views are not an over-simplification. I have taken every care to put it according to the Gurmat, but feel free to correct me!

Ambarsaria · #7 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2011, 14:31 PM

Aristotle ji I am little familiar with the Hiduism and Buddhism parts through discourse here. The following is not per Sikh Gurmat as far as I know, but I always stand corrected,

Quote:

Death is a natural phenomena, a 'soul' which is not jeevan mukt

Soul like the body is made of many parts,
just as it builds itself over time,
it also imparts itself into other souls physically and virtually (associations, talking, seeing, conversing, writing, etc., any modes of contact face to face or non-real time)
Soul is a dynamic entity in life and after
There is no need or demand on creator to keep it wholesome after death whether mukti stuff happens or not

is given another jeevan(life), reincarnated into the world again,

Not Gurmat: re-incarnation is not taught or espoused in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or by our Guru jis

but sans the previous memories and prejudices(combined into a single term, the previous 'sanskaars') to complete its future, to be 'jeevan-mukt'.

Not Gurmat: Your memories and prejudices already have become part of other souls much before your death and it is not much different after death

The part of God/Creator in everything and everyone is understood hence no merging or un-merging just discovering and knowing the limits of discovery. The infinite cannot be known stated again and again about the creator in Gurbani.

Sat Sri Akal.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #8 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2011, 16:09 PM

The biggest proponenet of all this is soemone called Dr devinder Singh Chahal at the Institute of sikhism and his Nanakian Philsophy which always lets him fall into hot soup wiht other sikhs...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36582
he is a scientist..and he ahs these DNA vs reincarnation theories all wrapped up...have a look at his site..here...
http://www.iuscanada.com

Ishna · #9 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2011, 17:35 PM

Thank you Ambarsaria ji, this is very stimulating conversation.

My thoughts...

The soul is one of those elements integral to most religions. Most religions would consider it's the soul that is the "little jyot", the soul which goes up to God, the soul which is reincarnated into another body, the soul which is rewarded in paradise, the soul which ascends to higher planes and teachers younger souls, etc. It's supposed to be the immortal part of ourselves.

But we are not separate... we are not individual. To think we are individual is to be in ego, to think we have "self". The ego disguises itself as the soul in most religions, it's almost the final grasp ego has on a human who believes they are otherwise enlightened and heaven-bound.