Guru Arjan as Incarnation of Waheguru?

sachbol · #64 (**permalink**) 13-Aug-2011, 21:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Ishna ji
Yes the Gurmukhi suggests that it is saying that Guru Arjan Dev ji is the incarnation of God/God himself. Mathura uses the word Avtar for Guru Arjan. Avtars are incarnations.

Now one person might reject this literal translation and advise to take it metaphorically like some sort of poetic praise. The other will take it word for word. (we will hear from more people soon) All perspectives point to towards the truth.

My suggestion would be to go beyond the words and try to feel what the word "incarnation" and the whole shabad is referring to. Meditate on the shabad.

Now, what other words can you use for that? (avoid thinking about that, post the words that immediately come through from meditation, and if no words arise that is fine too)

As per our Mool Mantar Wahiguru is Ajuni ie he never takes birth nor does he die.
Therefore it is wrong to say that any Guru was an Avtar of God.

Ishna · #65 (**permalink**) 14-Aug-2011, 06:32 AM

Sachbol ji

And that is exactly why I struggled with understanding the shabad as it says the opposite of what I understood to be true. The Gurbani says plainly that Guru Arjun was an Avtar of God.

When I read it on the screen at Gurdwara Sahib I was like "um, is this kirten actually from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji??". After responses through this thread, and some pondering, the case was made clear, as you will see from the posts earlier in the thread.

Gurbani is a curious thing, it has to use words (which are inadequate) to try to describe and explain something absolutely phenomenal. It's like trying to explain a taste to someone else, using only the other things you've tasted before as a reference point. None of them are going to accurately describe the taste (of the message within Gurbani), and the listener might mistake a regular foodstuff to be the taste described by the Gurmukh. "Well if he said it tastes like chicken chips, it must be chicken chips."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/36179-guru-arjan-as-incarnation-of-waheguru.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36179

One has to taste the unique, sublime, sweet taste of Gurbani oneself before it makes any sense.

Ambarsaria · #66 (**permalink**) 14-Aug-2011, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sachbol

As per our Mool Mantar Wahiguru is Ajuni ie he never takes birth nor does he die.
Therefore it is wrong to say that any Guru was an Avtar of God.

Hence for Sikhism no subjugates of God in the name of Avatars or Directors of Avatars, period. Be they,

Any of our Gurus
Ram
Krishna
Vishnu
Brahma
Parvati
Ganesh
Hanuman
Buddha
Jesus
and the list is un-ending

Any such names used in Gurbani are symbology to help people understand concepts and relationships with the creator.

Sat Sri Akal.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #67 (**permalink**) 14-Aug-2011, 07:38 AM

YOU GOT IT ISHNA JI....Finally.

che erleader

sachbol · #68 (**permalink**) 14-Aug-2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambarsaria

Hence for Sikhism no subjugates of God in the name of Avatars or Directors of Avatars, period. Be they,

Any of our Gurus
Ram
Krishna
Vishnu
Brahma
Parvati
Ganesh
Hanuman
Buddha
Jesus
and the list is un-ending

Any such names used in Gurbani are symbology to help people understand concepts and relationships with the creator.

Sat Sri Akal.

Ambarsariaji thanx. it is the duty of every learned Sikh to share his knowledge with people like me who just know ABC of Gurbani and Sikh itihas. I am grateful to SPN, its moderators and Gyani saheban who show us the way. Like a common man I have thosands of doubts about my own religions. Personalities like you are there to clear our doubts.
Waheguru mahar karey.

Jappo Satnam Satnam Satnam Ji, Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Ji

sachbol · #69 (**permalink**) 29-Oct-2011, 16:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

There is very important point to understand in the message given by Bhagat Singh ji.
and that point is "Unborn and Born"
Definitely there is something that takes birth and there is other thing that does not take birth and this thing is Ajoonee.
These two are different things not like that the same thing is unborned and Borned as well.
e should try to grasp this point from the understanding of Gurbaani and the understanding of this is again related to the concept of GuRU and GuR.

Prakash.s.bagga

No we can not prove hat our Moolmantar is False. "AJOONI" is the truth. He does not take birth Nor does He die !

prakash.s.bagga · #70 (**permalink**) 29-Oct-2011, 18:21 PM

SACHBOL Ji,
The cocept of incarnation in Gurbani is not the one which is related to Birth.(This concept of incarnation by way of birth is an accepted in Hindu or other philosophies) . The concept of incarnation in Gurbani is related to complete transformation of the thought process at any stage of life thru Gurjoti.This is important to understand.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36179
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36179

Prakash.S.Bagga

sachbol · #71 (**permalink**) 29-Oct-2011, 18:50 PM

Lot of confusion is created. Our Pracharaks make our Gurus Avtars of God.

prakash.s.bagga · #72 (**permalink**) 29-Oct-2011, 19:24 PM

SACHBOL Ji,
You can see an old Hindi Movie "AVTAR" starring Rajesh Khanna/Shabana Azami to get the meaning of AVTAR..I think this may of great help to understand the Concept of AVTAR.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36179
Prakash.S.Bagga