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A Few Questions From Me

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 22-Nov-2010, 08:44 AM
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Re: A Few Questions From Me

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Ok I will come back to this thread once I have read more so I can come back with knowledge/quotes if necessary to avoid us going in circles.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/32955-a-few-questions-from-me.html

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 22-Nov-2010, 14:33 PM
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Re: A Few Questions From Me

Shanger Ji,

(But what you have just said makes it seem like God created us, and then sat back and HOPED that we would do good deeds? Objectively speaking can you say that you could understand that behaviour from the force responsible for creating the world?)

If this is what you understood from what I wrote then we have a slight problem or you are just wet around the ears!
Do you know there is a woman who does not have arms but she has a baby that she looks after like a two handed mother! She has not understood what you say about the Lord and I am sure she does not complain to him about her disability - she would not have had the child if she did. If she thought like you she would be begging in the streets.
I consider this as an example to the world of what the lord can do for those who want to help themselves. I would put her in the catagory of saints.
Sometimes we have to move forward from thoughts to doing something practical to gain the Lord's help and direction as SHE has done.
See and hear her!!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 22-Nov-2010, 21:31 PM
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Re: A Few Questions From Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by findingmyway View Post
You have completely misunderstood reincarnation. Sikhi believes in rebirth not reincarnaton. They are very different so I suggest you do some reading!
Oh yeah-

I don't understand, checked on wiki

Quote:
Reincarnation is believed to occur when the soul or spirit, after the death of the body, comes back to life in a newborn body.
Reincarnation Reincarnation

Quote:
In Sikhism, it is thought that due to the commendable past actions and deeds (known as karma or kirat) that people obtain the chance of human birth, which is regarded in Sikhism as the highest possible opportunity on Earth and therefore should not be wasted. Only by continued good actions and the "Grace of the Almighty" can one obtain liberation from the continuous cycle of births and deaths of various bodily forms that the soul has been undergoing since the creation of the universe. The end of the cycle of transmigration of the soul is known as mukti. For Sikhs, the state of mukti can be achieved whilst still alive, known as "Jivan Mukat", literally "liberated whilst alive".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B...1ra_in_Sikhism

Quote:
The soul will have lived through many lives and will have inhabited many different forms before eventually being born in a human body.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/S...i_or_Salvation

rebirth doesn't sound much different from reincarnation at all?
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 22-Nov-2010, 21:40 PM
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Re: A Few Questions From Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by findingmyway View Post
[COLOR=Purple]Charity work is a type of praying as you are working to look after God's creation. One of the 3 pillars of Sikhi is seva-selfless service. As Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji said, kirtan is not just singing His praises but following advice in the Granth Sahib to become a better person. If someone stays on the right path without guidance, good for them!
Also going back to this point, is it really possible to be a good person and find god without praying?

I ask this because I'm sure I remember reading a shabad that said one can only reach salvation by meditating on the name of naam? I could be mistaken

Also this

Quote:
|| 1 || Those who do not meditate and vibrate on the Lord - I do not even want to see them. || 1 || Pause || Those whose inner beings are not in harmony with the Lord, are nothing more than beasts. |
http://www.sikhs.org/english/eg112.htm

Is this a metaphor I do not understand? Or a message to atheists/agnostics etc? Or does the 2nd line suggest it is referring only to bad people who by being bad are not in harmony with the lord?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 22-Nov-2010, 23:58 PM
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Re: A Few Questions From Me

Shanger ji

It is not possible to interpret the single verse outside of the context of the Shabad. Right now I would love to do that but do not have time.

Quote:
|| 1 || Those who do not meditate and vibrate on the Lord - I do not even want to see them. || 1 || Pause || Those whose inner beings are not in harmony with the Lord, are nothing more than beasts. |

http://www.sikhs.org/english/eg112.htm

Is this a metaphor I do not understand? Or a message to atheists/agnostics etc? Or does the 2nd line suggest it is referring only to bad people who by being bad are not in harmony with the lord?
I am not going to blame the translation. Rather, to do a proper analysis of this shabad, there are some things are needed for context. The shabad is a message to all of us. The message is: "Engage yourself in the deepest devotion."

The shabad is using Hindu imagery. The shabad is also composed by the Bhagat Nam Dev. Bhagat Nam Dev was a leading figure in the Bhakti movement of Northern India, which roughly occurred before and during the time of Guru Nanak. The Bhakti movement criticized the caste system, tended to see the Divine in the form of a single deity, understood the deity to be the "parabraham" or all pervading divine principle, and taught deep devotion rather than idolatry.

Therefore to understand what is referred in the verse and in the shabad, one needs to know the story of Nam Dev. And yes the language is employing metaphors and symbolism that are specific to the Vedantic system of philosophy (e.g., | Prays Naam Dayv, a man without a nose does not look handsome, even if he has the thirty-two beauty marks). And they should not be taken literally. Sorry to give you a rushed reply.

Essentially the line you cite is a poetic rejection of ritualistic worship and idolatry. Nam Dev is saying that this is not true bhagati/devotion and the Lord does not want to see it or hear it. Actually will not give "darshan."

By exploring the development of the images in the shabad, and how one idea leads to the next, you get a better sense of that single line. When you read more about Nam Dev it becomes clearer too. I would encourage you - though some may be shocked - to read Hindu sources on Nam Dev, as well as Sikh sources, to get the full measure of his impact on the Bhakti movement. Life sketches/janamsakkhis of the bhagats often give a distorted view of their contributions to the Guru Granth. Nam Dev was an ardent believer in Krishna; however, he also rejected idol worship.

Last edited by spnadmin; 23-Nov-2010 at 04:53 AM. Reason: Had time to add more.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 23-Nov-2010, 04:42 AM
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Re: A Few Questions From Me

Back now and here is what I make of the shabad in question in its entirety, Shanger ji.

All the elements of the Bhakti devotional tradition are found in the shabad. When you read through you can see these principles of Bhakti enunciated in the Gitas:

(Verse. 3) “Those who search my imperishable, invisible, unmanifest, omnipresent, beyond the limits of imaginations and yet permanent and hidden form (Spirit or soul) are also my devotees”. (V-3). For such devotees Lord indicates a three point plan (formula or path) in verse N0. 4.

(Verse. 4) “Those who search me via search of self (Atman) and soul can also see me in following way: (1) They have to control 10 organs- 5 sense organs and 5 organs of actions, plus mind and intellect; (2) They have to develop an attitude of equality for all living beings, (namely all living human beings, animals and plants) (3) They have to ever remain active in benevolent deeds for the welfare of all beings and creations during their entire life. Then such devotees can see my infinite form”. (V-4).

So how do we find this in the shabad of Sant Namdev.

Stanzas 1 and 2 Namdev threatens his tongue with physical harm. He is actually speaking to all of us. This is only figuratively a threat, of course. Taste is one of the senses and the tongue is the organ for taste, and ultimately over indulgence in food. He says to his tongue, " Chant," do immerse yourself, Tongue, in devotion to sri govind, instead, because sri govind is the wondrous seed of the universe. Govind also stands for spiritual wisdom.

ਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਕਰਉ ਸਤ ਖੰਡ ॥
rae jihabaa karo sath khandd ||
O my tongue, I will cut you into a hundred pieces,


ਜਾਮਿ ਨ ਉਚਰਸਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ॥੧॥
jaam n oucharas sree gobindh ||1||
if you do not chant the Name of the Lord. ||1||


Stanzas 3 and 4, Namdev says the tongue (all of us) should instead be "imbued" / drenched in the name of Hari, the Lord. The rehao line makes more obvious that not only the tongue but all of our consciousness should be imbued with the "this most excellent color" /meaning dyed with the love of Haree.

ਰੰਗੀ ਲੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਨਾਇ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32955
rangee lae jihabaa har kai naae ||
O my tongue, be imbued with the Lord's Name.

ਸੁਰੰਗ ਰੰਗੀਲੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32955
surang rangeelae har har dhhiaae ||1|| rehaao ||
Meditate on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, and imbue yourself with this most excellent color. ||1||Pause||

Stanzas 5 and 6. Here again the tongue is used only as metaphor for all of our body and mind. We have a tendency to busy ourselves with the material world and our false views of reality, Maya. If the tongue (we) were to recite the name of the One God Haree, then the tongue (we) would achieve consciousness of God, become Godly. It is only through this meditation, according to the bhagats of Nam Dev's time, that one achieves nirvana, or the "step" of nirvana which is the stage at which a devotee achieves realization of God. Everything else is false.

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਅਵਰੇਂ ਕਾਮ ॥
mithhiaa jihabaa avaraen kaam ||
O my tongue, other occupations are false.


ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਪਦੁ ਇਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੨॥
nirabaan padh eik har ko naam ||2||
The state of Nirvaanaa comes only through the Lord's Name. ||2||


Stanza 7 and 8. Bhagat Namdev teaches that all other forms of worship and "devotion" or pooja are nothing compared to total devotion and immersion in the Naamai Haree, God's name.

ਅਸੰਖ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਨ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੀ ॥
asankh kott an poojaa karee ||
The performance of countless millions of other devotions

ਏਕ ਨ ਪੂਜਸਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਹਰੀ ॥੩॥
eaek n poojas naamai haree ||3||
is not equal to even one devotion to the Name of the Lord. ||3||

Stanzas 9. Namdev says this is his one and only blessed deed or karanaa - to be a faithful devotee of God.

ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਇਹੁ ਕਰਣਾ ॥
pranavai naamadhaeo eihu karanaa ||
Prays Naam Dayv, this is my occupation.

Stanza 10 Namdev says God/Haree your forms are endless/naaraaeinaa.

ਅਨੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ ॥੪॥੧॥
ananth roop thaerae naaraaeinaa ||4||1||
O Lord, Your Forms are endless. ||4||1||

Stanza 11 and 12. He then gives the moral teaching consistent with the Bhakti philosophy. Those of us who give up greed and lust, those are the ones who are able to take refuge in Haree.

ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਪਰਹਰੀ ॥
par dhhan par dhaaraa pareharee ||
One who stays away from others' wealth and others' spouses

ਤਾ ਕੈ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਬਸੈ ਨਰਹਰੀ ॥੧॥
thaa kai nikatt basai nareharee ||1||
- the Lord abides near that person. ||1||

Stanzas 13 and 14 Namdev speaks to those who do not "meditate and vibrate"/actually sing bhajans (bhajanthae). Bhajans are mantras in praise of a deity and are set to music and meant to be sung in sangat. The verse in English says, "I do not want to see them." This means, however, to those people I will not give darshan (Namdev will only give darshan to those who are serious about their devotion.) This is a second rehao line and is therefore very important. It is important to remember that Namdev is writing this as if he is the one who is speaking it. However, he is actually stating that those who are not faithful and devout will not receive darshan of Haree. In the end, they will not achieve God Conciousness.

ਜੋ ਨ ਭਜੰਤੇ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ ॥
jo n bhajanthae naaraaeinaa ||
Those who do not meditate and vibrate on the Lord

ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਰਉ ਦਰਸਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
thin kaa mai n karo dharasanaa ||1|| rehaao ||
- I do not even want to see them. ||1||Pause||

Stanza 15 and 16 He says that if someone cannot be in harmony, in tune, with the divine, that person then still possesses an animal nature. In other words, it is only through faith, devotion and consciousness of the divine that we become truly human.

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹੈ ਅੰਤਰਾ ॥
jin kai bheethar hai antharaa ||
Those whose inner beings are not in harmony with the Lord,



ਜੈਸੇ ਪਸੁ ਤੈਸੇ ਓਇ ਨਰਾ ॥੨॥
jaisae pas thaisae oue naraa ||2||
are nothing more than beasts. ||2||


Stanzas 17 and 18. This image of the nose and the beauty marks is very much a powerful teaching of an important idea in the Bhakti movement. A man without a nose cannot breathe properly. The nose in this stanza is the organ that brings in air, which is the pranayam, or spiritual energy. The 32 beauty marks refer to the 32 qualities that Hindus believed were evidence of a moral nature. A person could have only a few indicators of a moral life, or all 32. But Namdev is saying that even this is academic. Even a moral person must imbue the essence of Haree through devotion.

ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਨਾਕਹਿ ਬਿਨਾ ॥
pranavath naamadhaeo naakehi binaa ||
Prays Naam Dayv, a man without a nose


ਨਾ ਸੋਹੈ ਬਤੀਸ ਲਖਨਾ ॥੩॥੨॥
naa sohai bathees lakhanaa ||3||2||
does not look handsome, even if he has the thirty-two beauty marks. ||3||2||

In one sentence, Bhagat Nam Dev is saying if you do not give up your indulgence in the material world of sensation, and drench yourself in devotion to the naam, you never will achieve the state of god consciousness. Hope that helps with your question.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 25-Nov-2010, 05:14 AM
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Re: A Few Questions From Me

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