Dear Original Ji
Thank you for taking the time for such a reply.
I'm sorry but I don't understand "dhur ki bani I" and "man ki bani I". My knowledge of Punjabi/Gurbani language is quite limited.
Our state of mind is how we interact with and relate to the world. It is part of the mind-body-spirit trilogy. Without a mind, we would be automatons.
To my mind, those paurhis of Japji Sahib broadly paint this picture:
- We find ourselves in this physical world. Here we make our paths. This creation is real, not an illusion.
- Here, we can learn from so many sources, and the best learning is spiritual wisdom.
- When you learn spiritual wisdom, things start to make sense. You start to hear the naad, i.e. perceive (with your mind, intuition, heart) the reality, the rhyme and reason to life and the universe.
- You become humbled with this spiritual wisdom, and blossom with it. In fact: ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥ The intuitive consciousness, intellect and understanding of the mind are shaped there.
- Then you know what to do, you can act with fearlessness, confidence and contentment, conquer your thieves.
- Finally you can see nothing but Naam, you can act in nothing but hukam, you see reality for what it is, like Nirankar does, because you realise there is nothing but Akaal Purakh and that you and everything else is nothing but It.
This is no 'mere mental exercise'. It is, as I've said a hundred times before,
holistic.
I did not invent the manmukh vs gurmukh states - it is there in the Gurbani. A manmukh is someone who can't/won't learn from Guru Sahib and put what they learn into action. A gurmukh is the opposite.
And I can't dichotomise the soul and the mind - there is no individual soul.
With respect, I don't understand the relevance of your tuks here.
I hope this doesn't happen to me then, because I don't want to be a dribbling vegetable.
Metaphysics is a traditional branch of
philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of
being and the
world that encompasses it,
[1] although the term is not easily defined.
[2] Traditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms:
[3]
- Ultimately, what is there?
- What is it like?
Yes, everything, including Maya, is within Akaal Purakh, There can be no other place. You don't find an ocean wave without it being in the ocean.
How can anything be separated if we just agreed it is all part and parcel. This is the stumbling block, my friend. There is no unique, individual soul that is separated from its home; there is no home to go to - everything is already in place. The separation is metaphorical to describe how we *think* we are separate - going home/meeting the other half/being ravaged by the Husband Lord is when you
break through the veil of illusion and see the reality right here and now,
Gurbani is the inspired word of those who have torn the veil. They know, and they teach, and they know that what they say is true and that only Nirankar is doing the speaking.
But there is no soul, so moot point. This body is like a glove, and Akaal purakh is the hand inside the glove. Akaal Purakh is also the glove. Mind. Blown.
According to Gurbani there can be nothing else, nothing separate. Where does this idea of a unique little ball of non-material consciousness, existing in some other place that is not of Akaal, come from?
Then what use is Gurbani if we can't learn from it? For sure, book smarts are not street smarts, and we have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk, to really experience and understand.
Perhaps, but this kind of wording doesn't seem to pluck my mental strings. But that might just be personal taste.
I hope I have not offended you or hurt your sentiments with my direct communication, Jio. That is certainly not my intention.
Thank you for taking the time for such a reply.
Your welcome !
I'm sorry but I don't understand "dhur ki bani I" and "man ki bani I". My knowledge of Punjabi/Gurbani language is quite limited.
That's ok .. perhaps one day you will !
Our state of mind is how we interact with and relate to the world. It is part of the mind-body-spirit trilogy. Without a mind, we would be automatons.
Life as it were was, once without mind, it was a process of the interaction between matter n energy described by the laws of physica n chemistry. Nevermind, moving on, has this spirit got a homeland, make, model, shape, colour, status,etc...body n mind can be quantitatively n qualitatively communicated, what of spirit ? I mean, does it die, what happens at and after death ?
I did not invent the manmukh vs gurmukh states - it is there in the Gurbani.
Why is it in the Gurbani ? [pls don't feel intimidated or indoctrinated, I'm probing for valid qualifications - you're the future of Sikhi].
And I can't dichotomise the soul and the mind - there is no individual soul.
Is there another Ishna ?
With respect, I don't understand the relevance of your tuks here.
The Gurbani's source is not Nanak - Baba Ji is telling Lalo,
"I'm not composing, its coming direct [dhur] from AP". And, how sweet when you study the original scriptures at Kartarpur, there you find the whole gurbani written in a continuous chain system of writing wherein in all the words in a line are joined together, but why ? Because when AP spoke through Nanak [conductor of energy or as an instrument through which energy flowed] it was to be captured live, direct from the source without human [mind] intervention. The subjective element of "form" [grammer, punctuation, etc] was avoided to record it as "objective" as it could be and to space word it, would've meant the engagement of the mind thus making it subjective/objective.
Metaphysics is a traditional branch of
philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of
being and the
world that encompasses it,
[1] although the term is not easily defined.
[2] Traditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms:
[3]
- Ultimately, what is there?
- What is it like?
Thank you
Guru Ji, never got it as good as this when at uni as an undergraduate philosophy/law student. But hey, this really helps and pretty candidly put.
How can anything be separated if we just agreed it is all part and parcel. This is the stumbling block, my friend. There is no unique, individual soul that is separated from its home; there is no home to go to - everything is already in place. The separation is metaphorical to describe how we *think* we are separate - going home/meeting the other half/being ravaged by the Husband Lord is when you break through the veil of illusion and see the reality right here and now,
...you may forget your mother, she won't [separation, the serverance of the one from the other, umbilical chord], from a physical view point. The mool [origin] is what underrpins Sikh thought and how the soul separated from Ikonkar, from a spiritual view point [an ideology, Sikh, you dont have to accept].
- think back to your earliest memory.
- Now project forward to the day of your death. Although, it's impossible to know when this will come, but it certainly will.
What you have just surveyed might be called your "life-span", or the time when this entity you call your "self" exists. Either side of that life-span is there something ? Indeed, it will be very mysterious if there weren't anything because modern humans have existed for more than 100,000 years or so, and more than 100,000 billion have already lived and died, what of their spirit, where did that go or where did it come from in the first place?
What is it that gives rise to a subjective sense of self made of matter and energy ?
There are two paths to unravel this mysterious sense of the self and they are; physical and spiritual.
Physical
Scientists explain that the self must be a collective property of the
neurons in your brain, which have mostly stayed with you throughout life, and which will cease to exist after you die. This bundle of neurons have made a permanent home within your bodily frame which has given rise to a subjective sense of selfhood and has labelled it self "IG". This IG bundle is
unique [there is only 1 Ishna] and cannot occupy another space [consciousness] at the same time (01-09-2015) and therefore can only recall experiences which the bundle has gone through within that IG frame (body).
Spiritual
Things we can touch have no permanence [this world is not real, read hymns of 9th master]. There is nothing we can hold on to in this physical world of matter, only by letting go can we truly possess what is
real. This intuitive sense of self is an effortless and fundamental human experience. But is nothing more than an elaborate illusion [maya]. The real self is formless and is both within and without - it is inconceivable. The mind has created this sense of the subjective self [IG] - let go and you will begin to feel the real [anhad shabd].
Our primary purpose is to move away from the physical perceptions and conceptions, only then can we experience the "absolute" self - the one without form.
Gurbani is the inspired word of those who have torn the veil. They know, and they teach, and they know that what they say is true and that only Nirankar is doing the speaking.
Who might they be ? Suerly not the authors of SGGSJ for they shun physical existence as temporary, illusionary [maya] and untrue [
koor]..kiv sachara hovi'ay kiv
kura tuta pal [Ang 1, pauri 1] ?
According to Gurbani there can be nothing else, nothing separate. Where does this idea of a unique little ball of non-material consciousness, existing in some other place that is not of Akaal, come from?
Young Lady, what material is the spirit ? Besides, we don't have to believe in electricity, we can see the evidence in the light bulb, nor, do we have to believe in other forces of nature to reinforce their very existence. Take gravity for example, we experience it in our everyday life. Similarly, if you were to believe in the spiritual you, you may bump into Chaz on a spiritual excursion, ha !
Ang 1123 says,
ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ II
God's abode - again, it's a question of belief and not interpretation. From what I read so far [your train of thought] - situation n circumstance have over time brought you to a point where you have begun to see through your own shades the Sikhi you believe. Stick to it, why grease a wheel that aren't squeaking.
I hope I have not offended you or hurt your sentiments with my direct communication, Jio. That is certainly not my intention.
Oh come on ! You're the brave new world ! Remember the wise words of Admin Singh, "unity in diversity" - Aussie Sikhi [you] American Sikhi [Veer, TSM] and UK Sikhi [Chaz, H n me] - lethal {censored}tail, Nanak n the gang are probably somersaulting on account having found universal trustees.