Hinduism Vaishnava Dharma And Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

It is poetry, that's a fact. But "mere" is not the adjective I'd use to describe it.

My view is that our Gurus were very intelligent. Guru Nanak was inspired - he saw the world around him, he connected with Ik Onkar, and his bani poured out from that place of inspiration and talent. Likewise for the other Gurus who contributed to the body of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I understand that Guru Nanak and Guru Arjan (please correct me if other Guru Sahiban added bania by Bhagats) found poetry by other people which spoke about the same philosophy as theirs - about the depth of Love for our Husband Lord, about society and about the human experience.

If you say they only added bania by people who 'found enlightenment', then what made them choose some bania and not others by the same author? By what standard did they retrospectively measure a deceased person's level of enlightenment?

1. O Deluded ones! Lord (Hari) resides in the heart of His devotees, gopies.
2. Why are you wandering in the forests while He, the nearest and dearest one, is your very self?
3. Why are you criss-crossing forests and various places having put on a show of renunciation?
4. The Lord is neither in the forest nor in the strange lonely places.
5. You may go to Kashi (Banares) and bathe in the Ganges during your pilgrimage
6. But Lord is neither in the water nor in the wind.
7. You may perform with the help of deluded priests, havans, yagnas and other rituals to satisfy your idiosyncrasies
8. But the Lord is neither in havens or fire worship rituals.
9. Gopi Mira's lover is the perfect gentleman Giridhar, whom she has married eternally
10. O Deluded worldly people! The Lord truly resides in the heart of His gopies (i.e. devotees). (Gita 2:42-44, 9:20-21)

A Meera bhajan. I don't know about you, but it sounds pretty consistent with Gurbani to me.

Ishna said:

1. O Deluded ones! Lord (Hari) resides in the heart of His devotees, gopies.
2. Why are you wandering in the forests while He, the nearest and dearest one, is your very self?
3. Why are you criss-crossing forests and various places having put on a show of renunciation?
4. The Lord is neither in the forest nor in the strange lonely places.
5. You may go to Kashi (Banares) and bathe in the Ganges during your pilgrimage
6. But Lord is neither in the water nor in the wind.
7. You may perform with the help of deluded priests, havans, yagnas and other rituals to satisfy your idiosyncrasies
8. But the Lord is neither in havens or fire worship rituals.
9. Gopi Mira's lover is the perfect gentleman Giridhar, whom she has married eternally
10. O Deluded worldly people! The Lord truly resides in the heart of His gopies (i.e. devotees). (Gita 2:42-44, 9:20-21)

A Meera bhajan. I don't know about you, but it sounds pretty consistent with Gurbani to me.

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Meera is so famous today, how famous she must be back then ! So there must be some reason why her bani wasn't included then !

I agree with you Ishna. The Gurus were pretty wise, and they had good poets. In the Guru Granth, they had notable poets in this. As for example Kabir, and many more poets. Sorry for not knowing about the Poets, as I am just a young kid

Also, just to be perfectly clear, I didn't start this thread to and prove or otherwise imply that Sikhi is a branch of Hinduism.

It would be useful, however, to look at the similarities and differences. This way we can understand the issue thoroughly and explain clearly with a solid background understanding about how it is not a branch of Hinduism or Vaishnava Dharma.

Seeker2013 said:

Yes , infact a naive person or even a hindu devotee who ever reads certain portions of SGGS would feel at home, because SGGS mentions all names familiar to Vaishnavs - Damodar, Deen dayal, Narayan , Kamal nayan, Sri dhar, etc are all names for waheguru (brahm) in sikhism but for Vishnu ji in hinduism.

Infact, prem bhagti of vaishnavs TBH is very similar to that found in sikhi.

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I know Christians, atheists and Muslims who "feel at home" while reading SGGS. SGGS mentions not just Hindu, but Islamic, Christian, Jewish and possibly Buddhist and Jain concepts as well.

Logically, does this lead towards the direction of "Sikhi is almost identical to Hinduism" or "every religion contains at least some portion of the Truth which is why there are similarities between Sikhi and most religions, not just Sikhi and Hinduism."

As for why there are so many Hindu names in SGGS, you have to understand that Hinduism is inseparably wedded to the Vedas, Upanishads and Bhagavad, all 3 of which sit at the center of its heart. And all 3 of these sets of scriptures were written in Sanskrit. Sanskrit, for those who don't know, is thousands of years old and for millenia occupied the role of lingua franca in the Indian subcontinent. It is one of the most ancient languages to have ever existed on the Indo-European tree. It has therefore had an enormous effect on the development of vocabulary, terminology and spiritual taxology throughout all of ancient India.

It is therefore no surprise at all that there is vocabulary and terminology used in SGGS which resembles what you would find in Hinduism. The main language of SGGS, Sant Bhasha, is heavily influenced by Sanskrit. And because Sanskrit is the main language of Hinduism, this overlapping of vocabulary is virtually unavoidable. It is like asking people to speak in French or Italian without using any words with Latin roots and origin. It is just impossible. So of course there are going to be things in SGGS Ji, which is mainly written in Sant Bhasha, to have similarities with words in Hinduism because of how powerful Sanskrit has been in shaping the spiritual taxology of the Indian subcontinent.

BhagatSingh said:

Try to see why Guru Arjun Dev ji is called Ajooni by sikhs in Gurbani.

Ajooni means transcends joons ie not being limited to a joon.

You can definitely incarnate and be ajooni at the same time.

In Guru Granth Sahib He definitely incarnates. One of His names is Narhar ਨਰਹਰ.

Nar-man, Har- God

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Certainly not in the same sense a Hindu would believe that Krishna is the incarnation of Vishnu, don't you think so? It was Guru Gobind Singh ji who said "Whosoever regards me as Lord shall be damned and destroyed...I am but the servant of God." Guru Arjan Dev ji would've seen his relationship with Waheguru in the same way.

JourneyOfLife Ji

Thank you for the information in your post. I was trying to find out more about Sant Bhasha the other day but couldn't because I had forgotten the term.

Gang,

Chew on the following: a noddy guide to who "really" are the Sikhs [pls accept sincere apologies in advance coz the information below is off-the cuff. As an undergraduate at a Law school one of the area I researched was, the caste system of India. Historical perspective was mind blowing. If it's outdated, I stand to be corrected - much obliged].

The Indo-Europeans lived in areas around the Black Sea or there about. From there they sprouted out into Iran, India, Greece, Italy, Spain, France, Britain and Scandinavia. Wherever they went, they assimilated with the local culture, but interestingly, their religion and language came to play a more dominant role.

The Indian Veda scriptures, Greek philosophy [immortality of the soul] and Snorri Sturlusion's mythology [Scandinavian, I think], are all written in related languages, mother of which is Sanskrit. If that'd be correct, it follows, their "ideas" we're related. This is why we [prehistoric academians] usually speak of an Indo- European culture. Need I say, their culture was influenced most of all by their system of belief, many Gods, from the likes of Apollo to Jupiter to Krishna to Thor to Zeus [polytheism, check out the striking similarities between these Gods, they were players and Baba Nanak didn't like that kinda thing and found a monotheistic system=King Singh, 1 God]. But the relevance here is of the Indo-Europen family as being the one and the same, who, as invaders of the Indus Valley civilisation brought with them their religion n culture.

Chech out the following: Hindu God Dyaus, which means sky, heaven, day. In Greek its Zeus, in Latin Jupiter and Old Norse Tyr in Scandinavian. These are the dialectal variance of the same word.

Of course, as you know the Turks n the Arabs n the Moghuls all had a bash at India. And, much of Punjabi culture is as a direct effect of this foreign invasion, for otherwise we were kool n deadly sing'n and dancing lot, where then, if a girl fancied a fella it was an immediate exchange of garlands without too much fuss. There was none of this ghund [veil] business nor were congregations divided where the guys n dolls set separately. Lot of the Persian aristocracy n social models in general caught 6th n 10th masters fancy, esp the hawk, symbol of royalty.

So as I was saying, truth be told, there was a pre-Indo-Europen culture flourishing, remnants of which can still be found in the region of Harappa. Question: What and who were these Indus Valley inhabitants that became subservient to the conqueror Indo-Europens ? Lot of commentators with so much bias have given different versions, I reserve mine. But of course, the true Indians are the Dravidians. Sex n Race [volumes] perhaps, may provide some insight, mind you, I picked that up back in 1975 so fresher evidence must be available.

For in depth understanding of Sikhi, know that we were the warrior apes of the African soil and the battle has always been with the self and not with the world. Guru Nanak's advent upon humanity and the DNA of SinghKaur has all the data necessary to know who you are, why you are, where you come from and where your going.

Goodnight n Godbless

JourneyOflife said:

As for why there are so many Hindu names in SGGS, you have to understand that Hinduism is inseparably wedded to the Vedas, Upanishads and Bhagavad, all 3 of which sit at the center of its heart. And all 3 of these sets of scriptures were written in Sanskrit. Sanskrit, for those who don't know, is thousands of years old and for millenia occupied the role of lingua franca in the Indian subcontinent. It is one of the most ancient languages to have ever existed on the Indo-European tree. It has therefore had an enormous effect on the development of vocabulary, terminology and spiritual taxology throughout all of ancient India.

It is therefore no surprise at all that there is vocabulary and terminology used in SGGS which resembles what you would find in Hinduism. The main language of SGGS, Sant Bhasha, is heavily influenced by Sanskrit. And because Sanskrit is the main language of Hinduism, this overlapping of vocabulary is virtually unavoidable. It is like asking people to speak in French or Italian without using any words with Latin roots and origin. It is just impossible. So of course there are going to be things in SGGS Ji, which is mainly written in Sant Bhasha, to have similarities with words in Hinduism because of how powerful Sanskrit has been in shaping the spiritual taxology of the Indian subcontinent.

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Please allow me to point one observation. Yes, names like Narayana, Rama, Krishna, Hari, etc are all Sanskrit names, but what is more important is that they are all names used by Vaishnavas. No other Hindu sect refers to God by these names. Narayana, Rama, Hari etc all refer to the Supreme God of the Vaishnavas (ie, Vishnu) in Hindu texts. Another thing is that besides Narayana, names like Rama, Krishna, Hari etc are all common nouns. What that means is that there are hundreds of words that mean the same thing as Rama or Hari. Take Rama for example. It means "pleasing, charming, delightful". However, another name (lalita-ललित), means the same exact thing. If Rama, Krishna, Hari etc are all meant to be general attributes of Waheguru (meaning that Waheguru is delightful, attractive, etc), why pick these Vaishnava names and not the other ones? Not trying to start a flame war or anything, since I have many Sikh friends and I respect the gurus and teachings of Sikhism immensely. I would consider myself lucky if you answered my question.

Regards,
axlyz

axlyz said:

Please allow me to point one observation. Yes, names like Narayana, Rama, Krishna, Hari, etc are all Sanskrit names, but what is more important is that they are all names used by Vaishnavas. No other Hindu sect refers to God by these names. Narayana, Rama, Hari etc all refer to the Supreme God of the Vaishnavas (ie, Vishnu) in Hindu texts. Another thing is that besides Narayana, names like Rama, Krishna, Hari etc are all common nouns. What that means is that there are hundreds of words that mean the same thing as Rama or Hari. Take Rama for example. It means "pleasing, charming, delightful". However, another name (lalita-ललित), means the same exact thing. If Rama, Krishna, Hari etc are all meant to be general attributes of Waheguru (meaning that Waheguru is delightful, attractive, etc), why pick these Vaishnava names? Not trying to start a flame war or anything, since I have many Sikh friends and I respect the gurus and teachings of Sikhism immensely. I would consider myself lucky if you answered my question.

Regards,
axlyz

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Dear axlyz,

Please allow me the pleasure to respond to your wonderful observation, but first, I must as a Sikh, tell you how touched I am of the subtlety and the care with which you have proposed, it means a lot - thank you !

To answer your question in the first instance, Waheguru [Akal Purakh albeit gur mantra] has no attitubutes. Sikh Religion [ Dharm], as regards reality attends to the concept of Sargun [with attributes] and Nirgun [without attributes]. On page 340 of SGGSJ, Bhagat Kabir expresses it beautifully, thus:

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 340}

Translation - written words are but "means" to an "end", the end in itself is ineffable.

Question for you is, does written names matter, and even if they did, what is the objective ?

Guru Nanak, a man of considerable piety n energy, who travelled far n wide was well versed with religious scriptures. He admits profoundly that it is not "truth" per se, but truthful living which overrides all philosophical and contemporary modes of expression.

The 10th Master, Guru Gobind Singh in Jaap Sahib has given God some 1200 -1400 different names, but concludes, it's not so much the "noun" but the "adjective" that best describes the nature and the being of God [ontological].

Hope I've been able to discharge the obligation with which you've charged SPN. Do feel free to chat with whatever takes your fancy.

Goodbye !

Ishna said:

JourneyOfLife Ji

Thank you for the information in your post. I was trying to find out more about Sant Bhasha the other day but couldn't because I had forgotten the term.

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You're weoclome. It was a huge shock when I heard it for the first time. All these years I was being told Punjabi was the main language of SGGS jI lol.

axlyz said:

Please allow me to point one observation. Yes, names like Narayana, Rama, Krishna, Hari, etc are all Sanskrit names, but what is more important is that they are all names used by Vaishnavas. No other Hindu sect refers to God by these names. Narayana, Rama, Hari etc all refer to the Supreme God of the Vaishnavas (ie, Vishnu) in Hindu text... why pick these Vaishnava names and not the other ones?

axlyz

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Two questions:

1) What are some other prominent names for God used in Sanskrit?

2) Which "Hindu sects" are these names common amongst?

JourneyOflife said:

1) What are some other prominent names for God used in Sanskrit?

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That is hard to say, because as per the Vishvakarma Suktam, all names refer only to God. Some prominent names would be purushottama, maheshvara, rudra, ananta, achyuta etc. These are names found in texts like Vishnu Sahasranamam. The Upanishadic names are bit more complex because they are not commonly used and also have very vague meanings.

2) Which "Hindu sects" are these names common amongst?

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Vaishnavism.

Regards,
axlyz

Original said:

Dear axlyz,

Please allow me the pleasure to respond to your wonderful observation, but first, I must as a Sikh, tell you how touched I am of the subtlety and the care with which you have proposed, it means a lot - thank you !

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I am humbled by your comments.

To answer your question in the first instance, Waheguru [Akal Purakh albeit gur mantra] has no attitubutes. Sikh Religion [ Dharm], as regards reality attends to the concept of Sargun [with attributes] and Nirgun [without attributes]. On page 340 of SGGSJ, Bhagat Kabir expresses it beautifully, thus:

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 340}

Translation - written words are but "means" to an "end", the end in itself is ineffable.

Question for you is, does written names matter, and even if they did, what is the objective ?

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Names are nothing but descriptions of God. Whenever there is a praise of Akal Purakh, I believe they have to be interpreted as referring to the Saguna aspect. This is my main point. When Hari, Narayana, Krishna, and other Vaishnava names are used in Sri Granth, they are interpreted as general names/attributes of Akal Purakh, and not the God of the Vaishnavas, Vishnu. But since they do use these Vaishnava names, there has to be a connection, because in Sanskrit these names refer to the Supreme God.


Narayana has several meanings, one of them is "The Refuge of all creatures".
Hari means "One who removes the jiva from the cycle of reincarnation"
Krishna means "darkish in complexion".

For example, does Sri Granth use the names Rudra, Maheshvara, Ishana, Shiva, etc? I do not know myself so I am asking you. Note that these names are used by Shaivas to represent their supreme God (shiva).

To answer your question, I will have to answer in a Vishistadvaitic POV, which may or may not be similar to Sikhi philosophy. Basically, God has infinite attributes, and each name represents an attribute of his. So since he has infinite attributes, he has infinite names. You probably know that Vaishnavas place great emphasis on Vishnu's names, since Vaishnavas were the first to spread the chanting of holy names. Each name has an aspect of God, and by meditating on that aspect we understand better.

The 10th Master, Guru Gobind Singh in Jaap Sahib has given God some 1200 -1400 different names, but concludes, it's not so much the "noun" but the "adjective" that best describes the nature and the being of God [ontological].

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So if I am understanding you correctly, whenever these names occur, their meaning must be accounted for. So whenever Krishna is being used, is it supposed to be interpreted as a general name (such as Lord) or is it interpreted as "one who has dark complexion"?

I have seen some cases where Hari, Krishna, Narayana etc are just interpreted as "Lord" and not their etymological meaning.

Hope I've been able to discharge the obligation with which you've charged SPN. Do feel free to chat with whatever takes your fancy.

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haha, thanks!

I think, in general, I am quite interested in knowing which Sanskrit names occur in Sri Granth. I am already aware of Hari, Narayana, Krishna, etc. Sri Granth is of course a masterpiece and can only be understood by people who have spent a lot of time studying it, so I am asking for the help of the Sikhi members here.

Regards,
axlyz

axlyz said:

I am humbled by your comments.

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I was praising !

axlyz said:

Names are nothing but descriptions of God.

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Correct! Names used for God in SGGSJ: Hari, Ram, Prabhu, Gopal, Gobind, Parbraham, Thukar, Karta, Data, Parmeshar, Murari, Mohan, Allah, Bhagwan....Gopinath, Govardhandhari - list is long but not exhaustive.

axlyz said:

This is my main point. When Hari, Narayana, Krishna, and other Vaishnava names are used in Sri Granth, they are interpreted as general names

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Naturally, given the motherboard is Sanskrit and the Ontological is Ek Omkar [Ikonkar], that is, A U M [OM].

axlyz said:

and not the God of the Vaishnavas, Vishnu.

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Correct !

axlyz said:

But since they do use these Vaishnava names, there has to be a connection, because in Sanskrit these names refer to the Supreme God.

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Naturally ! Just like roses have differnet names, shades, and fragrances, but one genus, so do different names for God expresses the same. NOTE: the variety in names for God and the various qualitative adjectives puts a seal in the belief of the Banikars [authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, SGGSJ] in the non-duality of God. They were calling for the love of God - above all varities and divisions of religion, classes, castes and groups.

axlyz said:

For example, does Sri Granth use the names Rudra, Maheshvara, Ishana, Shiva, etc? I do not know myself so I am asking you. Note that these names are used by Shaivas to represent their supreme God (shiva).

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No, not as a name for God !

axlyz said:

To answer your question, I will have to answer in a Vishistadvaitic POV, which may or may not be similar to Sikhi philosophy. Basically, God has infinite attributes, and each name represents an attribute of his. So since he has infinite attributes, he has infinite names. You probably know that Vaishnavas place great emphasis on Vishnu's names, since Vaishnavas were the first to spread the chanting of holy names. Each name has an aspect of God, and by meditating on that aspect we understand better.

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Pass !
If you read Sikh History you'll understanding the root and branch of Sikhism why and from where it comes. Page 722 of SGGSJ gives a brief snopsis of the atrocities the invading muslims inflicted on the innocent Hindus. Young Nanak witnessed it all, couldn't accept it - rebelled against it. Make what you will, but Gur Ghar was referred to as "hind di chaddar" and "hind da pir" by the ruling Mughals. The 5th master defied all and payed for with his life in upholding his belief, value and his mother tongue and likewise did, the 9th master. Do you know for what ? To protect sanskrit, for it was inevitable that Islam would annihilate all if patriotism and national vigour hadn't been exerted at that particular moment in time. So really, commonsense with a little bit of imagination ought to give you a good idea of what life would be like in India today if it hadn't been for Nanak. Make what you will of the names of Vishnu on account it being rescued by the authors of SGGSJ.

axlyz said:

So if I am understanding you correctly, whenever these names occur, their meaning must be accounted for. So whenever Krishna is being used, is it supposed to be interpreted as a general name (such as Lord) or is it interpreted as "one who has dark complexion"?

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See above !

axlyz said:

I have seen some cases where Hari, Krishna, Narayana etc are just interpreted as "Lord" and not their etymological meaning.

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Re-read post #50 re written names for God.

axlyz said:

I think, in general, I am quite interested in knowing which Sanskrit names occur in Sri Granth. I am already aware of Hari, Narayana, Krishna, etc. Sri Granth is of course a masterpiece and can only be understood by people who have spent a lot of time studying it, so I am asking for the help of the Sikhi members here.

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Compare Sanskrit to the binary system of the computer; much of what we have today in the form of the written and the spoken word in western civilised socities is from Sanskrit albeit varied in dialect.

Goodnight

axlyz said:

That is hard to say, because as per the Vishvakarma Suktam, all names refer only to God. Some prominent names would be purushottama, maheshvara, rudra, ananta, achyuta etc. These are names found in texts like Vishnu Sahasranamam. The Upanishadic names are bit more complex because they are not commonly used and also have very vague meanings.



Vaishnavism.

Regards,
axlyz

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Just to be clear, you are saying names such as "purushottama, maheshvara, rudra, ananta, achyuta" are also common names for God in Sanskrit, and they are also used by Vaishnavism?

What I am trying to ask are prominent names used for God in Sanskrit which do not feature in Vaishnavism but do so in other sects of Hinduism. Can you provide some examples?

Thank you.

JourneyOflife said:

Just to be clear, you are saying names such as "purushottama, maheshvara, rudra, ananta, achyuta" are also common names for God in Sanskrit, and they are also used by Vaishnavism?

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Yes, because the meaning of the names applies to God.

Purushottama- Person par excellence
Maheshvara- The Greatest Ishvara (Ruler)
Rudra- One who removes the disease of samsara
Ananta- Eternal
Achyuta- The Infallible one

Shaivas will think that these names refer to Shiva, whereas Vaishnavas will believe that these names refer to Vishnu.

What I am trying to ask are prominent names used for God in Sanskrit which do not feature in Vaishnavism but do so in other sects of Hinduism. Can you provide some examples?

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Like I said before, this is not easy. As per the Vishvakarma Suktam, God (Vishnu) possesses all names, so any name will refer to Vishnu one way or the other as per the rules of Sanskrit grammar. Many Vaishnava acharyas have used predominately Shaiva names to refer to Vishnu.

I get what you mean, though. Here are a couple of names that are not used by Vaishnavas very often.

Shaiva names
Nataraja- God of Dance
Vinayaka- Name for Ganesha
Mahesha- Great Lord
Sadashiva- Eternally Auspicious
Shankara- One who gives happiness
Trilochana- God with 3 eyes
Veerabhadra- Lord of the Netherworld
Nilakantha- Blue throated Lord
Bholenath- Innocent one
Bhooteshvar- God of Ghosts and Demons

Shakta names
Durga- Fortress
Kali- The dark complexioned goddess
Amba- Mother
Parvati- Daughter of the Mountains
Gauri- One with a very fair complexioned face
Uma- Lady
Bhairavi- One who bestows fortune (or someone associated with Tantra)

If you want more, Shaiva and Shakta names can be easily found on the internet. I have just posted the most popular ones.


Regards,
axlyz

Original said:

I was praising !

Correct! Names used for God in SGGSJ: Hari, Ram, Prabhu, Gopal, Gobind, Parbraham, Thukar, Karta, Data, Parmeshar, Murari, Mohan, Allah, Bhagwan....Gopinath, Govardhandhari - list is long but not exhaustive.

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This is quite interesting! In which context are names like Gopinath and Govardhandhari used? These names explicitly refer to Krishna and his past-times.

Gopinath- Lord of the Gopis
Govardhandhari- One who lifted the Govardhana mountain

Even names like Mohan, Murari, Gopal, and Govind have been used to refer to Krishna in Sanskrit literature.

Mohan- The one who charms
Murari- Killer of the Mura demon
Gopal- Protector of Cows
Govind- Protector of Earth, Cows, Vedas, etc

I would appreciate it if you could give me the Sikhi interpretations of these names. As a further request, I would be interested in knowing if the Bhagats who were Muslims used these names. Thanks!

Naturally ! Just like roses have differnet names, shades, and fragrances, but one genus, so do different names for God expresses the same. NOTE: the variety in names for God and the various qualitative adjectives puts a seal in the belief of the Banikars [authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, SGGSJ] in the non-duality of God. They were calling for the love of God - above all varities and divisions of religion, classes, castes and groups.

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I see, sounds very similar to ISKCON Vaishnavism. Transcend all religions and just focus on God.

No, not as a name for God !

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Which brings me to my main point. When it comes to using Sanskrit names, I feel that mainly Vaishnava names are used. Hopefully friend Journey will clarify on this.

If you read Sikh History you'll understanding the root and branch of Sikhism why and from where it comes. Page 722 of SGGSJ gives a brief snopsis of the atrocities the invading muslims inflicted on the innocent Hindus. Young Nanak witnessed it all, couldn't accept it - rebelled against it. Make what you will, but Gur Ghar was referred to as "hind di chaddar" and "hind da pir" by the ruling Mughals. The 5th master defied all and payed for with his life in upholding his belief, value and his mother tongue and likewise did, the 9th master. Do you know for what ? To protect sanskrit, for it was inevitable that Islam would annihilate all if patriotism and national vigour hadn't been exerted at that particular moment in time. So really, commonsense with a little bit of imagination ought to give you a good idea of what life would be like in India today if it hadn't been for Nanak.

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I am well aware of the bravery of Sikh warriors and their contributions against the Mughals. Every Hindu knows the greatness of leaders like Guru Govind Singh-ji and Guru Nanak. I am glad that Sikhs and Hindus united against a common enemy during that time and still do today. But of course, there were other people who played a great role in preservation of Hinduism and its culture such as Rana Sanga, Rana Kumbha, Rana Pratap, Shiva-ji, Bajirao, Prithviraj Chauhan, etc. I would say all of them played an equally important role.

Make what you will of the names of Vishnu on account it being rescued by the authors of SGGSJ.

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I suppose we disagree here. I think Vaishnava religion would have continued to exist in India even if the authors of SGGSJ did not "rescue" it.

Compare Sanskrit to the binary system of the computer; much of what we have today in the form of the written and the spoken word in western civilised socities is from Sanskrit albeit varied in dialect.

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Indeed, Sanskrit is very old, and an amazing language with a rich culture and literature.

Regards,
axlyz

axlyz said:

This is quite interesting! In which context are names like Gopinath and Govardhandhari used? These names explicitly refer to Krishna and his past-times.

Gopinath- Lord of the Gopis
Govardhandhari- One who lifted the Govardhana mountain

Even names like Mohan, Murari, Gopal, and Govind have been used to refer to Krishna in Sanskrit literature.

Mohan- The one who charms
Murari- Killer of the Mura demon
Gopal- Protector of Cows
Govind- Protector of Earth, Cows, Vedas, etc

I would appreciate it if you could give me the Sikhi interpretations of these names. As a further request, I would be interested in knowing if the Bhagats who were Muslims used these names. Thanks!

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...polite suggestion ! get yourself an English version of SGGSJ and please enlighten and tell me where we going with this - thx.

axlyz said:

I see, sounds very similar to ISKCON Vaishnavism. Transcend all religions and just focus on God.

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..great ! what will it be, milk shake or a gold medal ?

axlyz said:

Which brings me to my main point. When it comes to using Sanskrit names, I feel that mainly Vaishnava names are used.

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Sanskrit happens to be our mother tongue, what am I to make of your assertion ?

axlyz said:

I am glad that Sikhs and Hindus united against a common enemy during that time and still do today.

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"...no foe no stranger, everyone a friend" says Sikhism, page 1299 SGGSJ

axlyz said:

But of course, there were other people who played a great role in preservation of Hinduism and its culture such as Rana Sanga, Rana Kumbha, Rana Pratap, Shiva-ji, Bajirao, Prithviraj Chauhan, etc. I would say all of them played an equally important role

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axlyz said:

I suppose we disagree here. I think Vaishnava religion would have continued to exist in India even if the authors of SGGSJ did not "rescue" it.

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...I'm reminded of the old African saying, "if the lions had their own story tellers, the tale of the hunt wouldn't always glorify the hunter". All the names you've mentioned are warrior names [Kshatriya], probably from Rajasthan and the surnames believe it or not are Sikh surnames. What does that tell you ? Guru Nanak didn't move the goal posts, instead, he changed the rules of the game, that is, from polytheism to monotheism, from Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva to Ikonkar, stripped Deities of their {censored}nal from within Mandir walls and armed themselves instead to defend kin n country, kicked superstition up the bum and reconciled social stratification to solidify a reactionary militia against Islamic tyranny. My friend if what you're saying is true, and no doubt you are, then it leaves me wondering why the Kashmiri Brahmans sought asylum within the Sikh camps and not with the above bravos ? comp'renda !

axlyz said:

I suppose we disagree here. I think Vaishnava religion would have continued to exist in India even if the authors of SGGSJ did not "rescue" it.

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...probably, only insofar, a history channel on an Islamic network !

axlyz said:

Indeed, Sanskrit is very old, and an amazing language with a rich culture and literature.

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Yes, axlyz - that'd be our mother tongue, yours and mine.

Original said:

...polite suggestion ! get yourself an English version of SGGSJ and please enlighten and tell me where we going with this - thx.

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Okay. Do you have any websites where I could get English translations? I know only of Sri Granth.

Sanskrit happens to be our mother tongue, what am I to make of your assertion ?

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Not an assertion, an observation. Obviously I have not read SGGS nor do I have a copy of it. But, as per the rules of Sanskrit, names like Narayana, Krishna, Hari, etc refer to Vishnu, but in SGGS they are meant for Waheguru. So why pick these names and not Shaiva names like Rudra, Shiva, Ishana, Mahadeva, even though they are very close in meaning. Is it because many gurus were Vaishnavas or is there a different reason?

...I'm reminded of the old African saying, "if the lions had their own story tellers, the tale of the hunt wouldn't always glorify the hunter". All the names you've mentioned are warrior names [Kshatriya], probably from Rajasthan and the surnames believe it or not are Sikh surnames.

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Sikh surnames or not, they were all Hindus, and most of them lived before the birth of Guru Nanak.

What does that tell you ? Guru Nanak didn't move the goal posts, instead, he changed the rules of the game, that is, from polytheism to monotheism, from Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva to Ikonkar, stripped Deities of their {censored}nal from within Mandir walls and armed themselves instead to defend kin n country, kicked superstition up the bum and reconciled social stratification to solidify a reactionary militia against Islamic tyranny. My friend if what you're saying is true, and no doubt you are, then it leaves me wondering why the Kashmiri Brahmans sought asylum within the Sikh camps and not with the above bravos ? comp'renda !

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That is because all the people I mentioned lived before the beginning of Sikhism (Guru Nanak's lifetime). The Sikh military was the strongest opponent of the Mughals after 1550 AD, and the Marathas led the attack on the Mughals from the South. Before them, you had people like Rajputs primarily fighting against the Mughals. So, Sikhs were probably the only recourse for the Kashmiri Brahmins.

Yes, axlyz - that'd be our mother tongue, yours and mine.

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This was never in contention. Sanskrit belongs to all Indians.

Regards,
axlyz

axlyz said:

Okay. Do you have any websites where I could get English translations? I know only of Sri Granth.

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..google will b your best bet, otherwise try ishar micro media or livekirtan.com, failing that, I'll be more than happy to provide you with a hard copy.

axlyz said:

Not an assertion, an observation.

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..this will get too messy, but for the record, if you go back and re-read, you'll find the word "I feel" [verb], which is subjective and is usaually attributed to the realm of the heart as opposed to "I think", an obejective, operative organ of which is the mind. And, it is "how" [active as opposed to passive] you've expressed that feeling which I read it as an assertion [result of feeling], whereas an observation is usually associated with perception mainly on experimental and visual reality. But pls, let's move, on the balance of probabilities, you're right n I'm not wrong.

axlyz said:

But, as per the rules of Sanskrit,

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..not only Sanskrit rules, but generally, science of grammer applies to all forms of expressions.

axlyz said:

names like Narayana, Krishna, Hari, etc refer to Vishnu

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..do these names have to have patent protection ? May I suggest you dig-deep to ascertain the genetic signatures of the population in question [hindu n sikh] to get a feel of the subject-matter to hand. Let me give you a lead - Yamnaya, Hunter gathers, Neolithic farmers, Ancient North Eurasians and Basal Eurasians. Vishnu n the gang appeared a lot later. See if you can get your hands on the "seven daughters of eve" by Brian Sykes, it'll give you a good idea of the family of the modern man.

axlyz said:

but in SGGS they are meant for Waheguru.

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...waheguru is gur mantra, just like om namish swaya.

axlyz said:

So why pick these names and not Shaiva names like Rudra, Shiva, Ishana, Mahadeva, even though they are very close in meaning. Is it because many gurus were Vaishnavas or is there a different reason?

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As I said to you before, roses are called by different names, have different shades of texture n colour, fragrance, but yet, they all have the one and the same common ancestor. Similarily, Hindu Sikhs spring-off the one mother board, naturally there will be commonaility, similarity, likeness, etc ....it is naturally the case and not superficially the design of social n cultural homogenisation.

axlyz said:

Sikh surnames or not, they were all Hindus, and most of them lived before the birth of Guru Nanak.

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..if you say so !

axlyz said:

That is because all the people I mentioned lived before the beginning of Sikhism (Guru Nanak's lifetime).

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No comment !

axlyz said:

The Sikh military was the strongest opponent of the Mughals

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Sikh's have no opponents and are themselves non-opponent orientated social beings. It has always been a struggle of "fairness" on their part in relation to human rights, values and freedoms in a civilised society.

axlyz said:

So, Sikhs were probably the only recourse for the Kashmiri Brahmins.

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..if you say so !

axlyz said:

This was never in contention

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...pls tell me what is ?

axlyz said:

Sanskrit belongs to all Indians.

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..does it ! And, exactly who are these Indians ? What of the Indus Valley Civilisation, the Dravidians, natives of the Andaman Islands, are they classed as Indians ? And, what of the Aborigines of Australasia, are they not related to the pockets of pepole found in and around the South of India ? And, yes, the importers of Sanskrit and Hinduism, who were they ? It is important to look at the human you than the religious you beacuse religion and language go hand-in-hand, usually following human migration.