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Bad Translations And Interpretations-how Do They Affect Us?

japjisahib04

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ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥ Jin ka▫o naḏar karam ṯin kār.
Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.
This is the daily routine of those on whom God casts His gracious glance.
First little question, is God biased that He chose His favorites and case His Glance of Grace upon them. Is this gurmat? Gurmat as per my understanding is, 'ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥ whosoever place his faith in gurbani and blends with truth, he becomes ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ - exclusive, as such each and everyone is qualified and could be exclusive.
 
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chazSingh

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First little question, is God biased that He chose His favorites and case His Glance of Grace upon them. Is this gurmat? Gurmat as per my understanding is, 'ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥ whosoever place his faith in gurbani and blends with truth, he becomes ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ - exclusive, as such each and everyone is qualified and could be exclusive.

of course he doesn't have his favourites..

as you sow shall you reap...and as you said yourself...if we align according to gurmat values and actions...then we are on the right track

we are all under his hukam....he grants our wishes....if we want to be led astray under the 5 thieves, then that is what will happen...if we want to seek His shelter then that is also what will happen..

wherever one places His/Her Dyaan...that will manifest eventually

all by his power...

Aakhan jor, Chupai neh jor,

Jor na mangan dayn na jor

Jor na jeevan maran neh jor

Jor na raaj maal man sor

Jor na surtee giaan vechaar

Jor na jugatee chutai sansaar

Jis hath jor kar vekhai so-i

Nanak utam neech na ko-i
 

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the audience is us....only the present moment exists...Gurbani exists in this present moment..for us...not for anyone else...it's timeless...it has to be no other way...it can't be no other way
Beautifully put ! Flowing from your statement above, we can convienently conclude that gurbani is "timeless" and is therfore an "objective" truth [sat].
something constant had to be placed in a changing world...an anchor...SGGS ji is that anchor.
Too Good ! Bang-on ! Again, an "objective good"!
Just my feelings...
This is you being subjective. Your decisions are based on principles n values, primary organ "operative" is your heart and not the mind [thinking as opposed to feeling], where God lives. Your perceptions n conceptions are based on feelings and extenuating circumstances.
 

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Lady n Sirs
Re pauri 38

Jin kauon, literally meaning, whosoever
nadar=graceful observation or bestowment, in the instant case it is the former [God the observer, both within n without]
karm=both in deed and in thought [karm to be read as a doctrine of a system of belief and not as an agent defining particular and general a verb of language]
tin car=those who by virtue of karm [by deed n thought] have reached a state of being

Essence of pauri 38 in its simplist form is more of a declaration than an affirmation, that is to say, humankind is intrinsically rational, full of virutes [jat] and like the goldsmith, if humankind was to work on "self" [like goldsmith works on gold] human condition could be purified, like gold is, when heated all impurites bubble-out, similarly, when virtuous traits become habits the innerself becomes pure to receive nectar. This, Nanak says happens at a stage when the adept has attained a state of being through karm, meaning, performed such acts in deed n thought of moral n spiritual excellence which in the eyes of the Omnipotent God is deserving of gur prasad [state of grace].

The understanding and interpretation of gurbani is particularly difficult where the text is composed in sutras. Sutras are highly compact phrases of meaning-packed flashes of language which avoid vast use of words for elucidation. Verses in the sutra style do not have any specifically expressed vebs, cases or prepositions, leaving a good deal to the imagination of the reader. What Ravi, the river couldn't say [phiosophic prose], Kavi the singer could [poet], hence, gurbani composed in raag.

Another translation issue is cultural and linguistic disparities between gurmukhi n english which precludes word for word translation, thereby resticting the capacity of mutual rendition.

Words at best have different meanings for each listener due to their own perspective and understanding. As we ourselves grow in understanding, so too does the depth and grandeur of gurbani becomes more n more apparent. The real journey of spiritual understanding lies not in reading but in our personal transformation through action n inaction [deed n thought].

Opinion

State of grace [gur prasad] is a discussion to be had, where gur ghar Sikhi is a proof in the the pudding for the "believer".
 

Sherdil

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karm=both in deed and in thought [karm to be read as a doctrine of a system of belief and not as an agent defining particular and general a verb of language]
Literally karm means action. It is employed in the theory of Samsara to denote the means by which the atma finds release.

In this case however, karm refers to the aforementioned actions listed in the previous lines. That is why the green translation provided by Ishna ji for comparison, describes it as a “daily routine”.

tin car=those who by virtue of karm [by deed n thought] have reached a state of being

Kar and karm share the same Sanskrit root word kri (to do, to make). Tin is the causative agent, in this case Nadar (not karma). It is Nadar that causes one to perform the aforementioned karm (action).

Sorry japjisahib ji. I think the Arab etymology for the word Nadar (look, glance) is a better fit. In this discussion of karm and tin kar, it is important to keep in mind who is karta (the doer). Karta Purakh.
 

japjisahib04

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I think the Arab etymology for the word Nadar (look, glance) is a better fit. In this discussion of karm and tin kar, it is important to keep in mind who is karta (the doer). Karta Purakh.
God is all full of wisdom and inevitable laws of nature. To attain His wisdom and understand laws of nature is 'daat' or nadar. Contrary to general belief and understanding that if God glance His grace then only one is blessed whereas Gurbani tells us, 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਭਾਉ ਤਿਨਾ ਸਵਾਰਸੀ ॥ ਸੂਖੀ ਕਰੈ ਪਸਾਉ ਦੂਖ ਵਿਸਾਰਸੀ ॥ those who clean and fill their vessels with nectar of love(divine intellect) only they are blessed with eternal peace and their pains are forgotten, thus granting SOS type grace to selected goes against laws of nature as gurbani says, 'ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ One thing we need to understand when I attain His intellect i.e. kirpa that no kirpa if vessels is upside down and manh is empty with divine intellect.

Now coming back to subject pankti and 'nadar' & 'tin kar', let us see who is karta purakh, what is nadar in this panki. In first pauree of Japjisahib Manh enquires very passionately how to be sachiar and after travelling all the way through 38 pauree, has now reached in a state of sachiar.Thus in a state of sachiar, in this pankti 'ਜਿਨ' is without sihari and as such it is in plural form and over here 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ' stands for whosoever attains essence of gurmat(ਕਰਮੁ with aunkar is His virtues) and (ਨਦਰਿ is His way of thinking - His paradigm) and live accordingly completes his ਕਾਰ' mission.Thus karta in this pankti is manh and not God.
 

Sherdil

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God is all full of wisdom and inevitable laws of nature. To attain His wisdom and understand laws of nature is 'daat' or nadar. Contrary to general belief and understanding that if God glance His grace then only one is blessed whereas Gurbani tells us, 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਭਾਉ ਤਿਨਾ ਸਵਾਰਸੀ ॥ ਸੂਖੀ ਕਰੈ ਪਸਾਉ ਦੂਖ ਵਿਸਾਰਸੀ ॥ those who clean and fill their vessels with nectar of love(divine intellect) only they are blessed with eternal peace and their pains are forgotten, thus granting SOS type grace to selected goes against laws of nature as gurbani says, 'ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ One thing we need to understand when I attain His intellect i.e. kirpa that no kirpa if vessels is upside down and manh is empty with divine intellect.

Now coming back to subject pankti and 'nadar' & 'tin kar', let us see who is karta purakh, what is nadar in this panki. In first pauree of Japjisahib Manh enquires very passionately how to be sachiar and after travelling all the way through 38 pauree, has now reached in a state of sachiar.Thus in a state of sachiar, in this pankti 'ਜਿਨ' is without sihari and as such it is in plural form and over here 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ' stands for whosoever attains essence of gurmat(ਕਰਮੁ with aunkar is His virtues) and (ਨਦਰਿ is His way of thinking - His paradigm) and live accordingly completes his ਕਾਰ' mission.Thus karta in this pankti is manh and not God.

The concept of Nadar is related to another Arabic word, Hukam. In Arabic, Hukam literally means order / command (not natural law).

With His Nadar (glance of grace), he inspires us to walk the path
With His Hukam (command), He causes us to walk the path

Karta is an adjective used in the present tense that describes someone who is in the act of doing. In the present moment the Divine is creating this play, just as a dancer creates a dance.

Purakh comes from the word Purusha. It denotes an all seeing, all knowing, all doing cosmic entity. In Gurbani, this is best illustrated with the analogy of a single actor playing the roles of all the different characters. The question of partiality doesn’t even arise, since all the characters are Him.
 

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God is all full of wisdom and inevitable laws of nature. To attain His wisdom and understand laws of nature is 'daat' or nadar. Contrary to general belief and understanding that if God glance His grace then only one is blessed whereas Gurbani tells us, 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਭਾਉ ਤਿਨਾ ਸਵਾਰਸੀ ॥ ਸੂਖੀ ਕਰੈ ਪਸਾਉ ਦੂਖ ਵਿਸਾਰਸੀ ॥ those who clean and fill their vessels with nectar of love(divine intellect) only they are blessed with eternal peace and their pains are forgotten, thus granting SOS type grace to selected goes against laws of nature as gurbani says, 'ਊਂਧੈ ਭਾਂਡੈ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ One thing we need to understand when I attain His intellect i.e. kirpa that no kirpa if vessels is upside down and manh is empty with divine intellect.

Now coming back to subject pankti and 'nadar' & 'tin kar', let us see who is karta purakh, what is nadar in this panki. In first pauree of Japjisahib Manh enquires very passionately how to be sachiar and after travelling all the way through 38 pauree, has now reached in a state of sachiar.Thus in a state of sachiar, in this pankti 'ਜਿਨ' is without sihari and as such it is in plural form and over here 'ਜਿਨ ਕਉ' stands for whosoever attains essence of gurmat(ਕਰਮੁ with aunkar is His virtues) and (ਨਦਰਿ is His way of thinking - His paradigm) and live accordingly completes his ਕਾਰ' mission.Thus karta in this pankti is manh and not God.
Respected Japjisahib Ji

For a moment step back from the pages of SGGSJ and have a look at what Gur Nanak came to convey, and "who to" ?

Given that sizeable population was illiterate around Nanak's time, it would seem sensible and logical if Nanak had spoken in simple rather than complex language. Society at that time was Hindu-Islamic [c1500], the word nadar [arabic] in its literal interpretation is glance, which would've been frequently used in everyday conversation amongst both the contemporaries and the ordinary citizen.

According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not, in this case, nadar meaning glance. If we depart, like you're doing, from the plain and obvious meaning, we in truth do not construe the actual wording but alter it. Regard must also be had for Nanak with his intended meaning, which is glance, who's glance, Akal Purakh's ! Now why would Nanak want to bring about cognitive dissonance ?

Sikh philosophy was constructed deliberately with effect, "keep it short n simple " [kiss]. Two dominant ideas in their simplistic form says it all, manmukh n gurmukh. Jap Ji Sahib read in its entirety starts with manmukh qualities moving slowly towards the spiritual, gurmukh qualities and capping pauri 38, as "hey human......all in good time by the grace [nadar] of God".

Sherdil's recent interpretation is beautifully worded because both intent n purpose satisfied.

Good day !
 

japjisahib04

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The concept of Nadar is related to another Arabic word, Hukam. In Arabic, Hukam literally means order / command (not natural law).

With His Nadar (glance of grace), he inspires us to walk the path
With His Hukam (command), He causes us to walk the path
Appreciate your interest; No doubt He is inspiring us to walk the divine path but gurbani tells us, ' ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ but manh dai paradigm to pasand hi nahi then all this treasure of wisdom is useless.
Given that sizeable population was illiterate around Nanak's time, it would seem sensible and logical if Nanak had spoken in simple rather than complex language. Society at that time was Hindu-Islamic [c1500], the word nadar [arabic] in its literal interpretation is glance, which would've been frequently used in everyday conversation amongst both the contemporaries and the ordinary citizen.

According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not, in this case, nadar meaning glance. If we depart, like you're doing, from the plain and obvious meaning, we in truth do not construe the actual wording but alter it. Regard must also be had for Nanak with his intended meaning, which is glance, who's glance, Akal Purakh's ! Now why would Nanak want to bring about cognitive dissonance ?

Sikh philosophy was constructed deliberately with effect, "keep it short n simple " [kiss]. Two dominant ideas in their simplistic form says it all, manmukh n gurmukh. Jap Ji Sahib read in its entirety starts with manmukh qualities moving slowly towards the spiritual, gurmukh qualities and capping pauri 38, as "hey human......all in good time by the grace [nadar] of God".
Original Jee,

I am wondering, when in simple word Nadhree is God then naturally all divine traits are Nadhar as God gifts are His divine intellect which is also called satguru. Since His grace is already available to anyone whosoever wishes to seek then why guru sahib single out and says, 'ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ if I take your meaning it means certain people are excluded from His grace. SGGS.2. Therefore logically meaning of this pankti will be whosoever does not live as per the paradigm of Nadhree (antar atma), he cannot explore the treasure within as such, his chaz achar will be of lowly and of guilty.

Now coming to your remarks 'According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not, in this case, nadarmeaning glance. If we depart, like you're doing, from the plain and obvious meaning, we in truth do not construe the actual wording but alter it. Regard must also be had for Nanak with his intended meaning, which is glance, who's glance, Akal Purakh's ! Now why would Nanak want to bring about cognitive dissonance', I ask you a simple question. In 3rd stanza guru sahib says, 'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ what is He giving that we got weary of receiving and since this pankti is followed by juga jughantar kahaey so let us what we are eating from centuries? Therefore, let us check whether Pauri 3 is really referring to material items as when we look at pauree 1 which says, 'bhukhiya bukh n utrey - we are never tired of receiving but keep on demanding and further says, 'trishna virlai ki hi bhujhi re'. It means something is wrong in our understanding and interpretation. It needs research. I think ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ His divine intellect is, 'Jhimm jhimm varsai amritdhara is continuously raining' and whosoever seeks and attain it, he becomes stable and "jugo jugantar khai khain" means is, once a mat is filled with "denda's dena, i.e. nadar, tat gyan, kirpa, the seeker becomes forever stable.' This bhojan of divine is remedy if I eat then ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਵੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥ (1429-13. The rest is upto you.
 

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I am wondering, when in simple word Nadhree is God then naturally all divine traits are Nadhar as God gifts are His divine intellect which is also called satguru. Since His grace is already available to anyone whosoever wishes to seek then why guru sahib single out and says, 'ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ if I take your meaning it means certain people are excluded from His grace. SGGS.2. Therefore logically meaning of this pankti will be whosoever does not live as per the paradigm of Nadhree (antar atma), he cannot explore the treasure within as such, his chaz achar will be of lowly and of guilty.
I think what is missing from much of your "beautiful" thought process is the idea of "God", what it is, who it is, where it can be found, how it can be found, communicated, etc. And, once you've identified God you'll be best placed to dilute HIM/HER [God] with anything and anyone. In the instant case above, Nanak is very comfortable imagining God to be both sargun [individual] and nirgun [collective] and portrays nadar as emanating from the whole [nirgun] on to the part [sargun]. There isn't pick n choose or any bias on God's part, but left very much down to the individual to perform karm both in deed n thought [meaning action] and accordingly is entitled to consideration [glance].
Now coming to your remarks 'According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the words to be construed their literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not, in this case, nadarmeaning glance. If we depart, like you're doing, from the plain and obvious meaning, we in truth do not construe the actual wording but alter it. Regard must also be had for Nanak with his intended meaning, which is glance, who's glance, Akal Purakh's ! Now why would Nanak want to bring about cognitive dissonance',
You didn't answer, never mind, but please ask yourself the question why would Nanak want to rock the boat amongst his children !
In 3rd stanza guru sahib says, 'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ what is He giving that we got weary of receiving and since this pankti is followed by juga jughantar kahaey so let us what we are eating from centuries? Therefore, let us check whether Pauri 3 is really referring to material items as when we look at pauree 1 which says, 'bhukhiya bukh n utrey - we are never tired of receiving but keep on demanding and further says, 'trishna virlai ki hi bhujhi re'. It means something is wrong in our understanding and interpretation. It needs research. I think ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ His divine intellect is, 'Jhimm jhimm varsai amritdhara is continuously raining' and whosoever seeks and attain it, he becomes stable and "jugo jugantar khai khain" means is, once a mat is filled with "denda's dena, i.e. nadar, tat gyan, kirpa, the seeker becomes forever stable.' This bhojan of divine is remedy if I eat then ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਵੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭੁੰਚੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥ (1429-13. The rest is upto you.

'ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ is that the Giver [God] always keeps giving, but those receiving [jo public] do not last forever. Planet Earth has consumed Waheguru's gifts for yonks, but the Lord has no shortage - bring'em on He declares. In 'bhukhiya bukh n utrey' - the context in which it is applied is to show that the greed of the greedy cannot be extinguished or fulfilled.

More another time - sorry, lunch time !

Take care !

PS I'm touched by your proposal to research more - finding middle ground is always the way forward.
 

japjisahib04

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I think what is missing from much of your "beautiful" thought process is the idea of "God", what it is, who it is, where it can be found, how it can be found, communicated, etc. And, once you've identified God you'll be best placed to dilute HIM/HER [God] with anything and anyone. In the instant case above, Nanak is very comfortable imagining God to be both sargun [individual] and nirgun [collective] and portrays nadar as emanating from the whole [nirgun] on to the part [sargun]. There isn't pick n choose or any bias on God's part, but left very much down to the individual to perform karm both in deed n thought [meaning action] and accordingly is entitled to consideration [glance].
You mean to say nadar as emanating from the whole(nirgun) on to the part(sargun), in that case how will you translate 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੬॥
 

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You mean to say nadar as emanating from the whole(nirgun) on to the part(sargun), in that case how will you translate 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੬॥
Correct !

As regards 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੬॥ Let us read the full shabd to construe accurately. What you've presented is pauri, which is the extended bit to what on the whole is a continuation of the demerits of both hindu n muslim practices.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥ ਛੁਰੀ ਵਗਾਇਨਿ ਤਿਨ ਗਲਿ ਤਾਗ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਘਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਨਾਦ ॥ ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਓਈ ਸਾਦ ॥ ਕੂੜੀ ਰਾਸਿ ਕੂੜਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਡੇਰਾ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੂੜੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੇੜਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਖਾਈ ॥ ਹਥਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਾਸਾਈ ॥ ਨੀਲ ਵਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ ਮਲੇਛ ਧਾਨੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥ ਚਉਕੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਚਉਕਾ ਕਢੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਉਪਰਿ ਆਇ ਬੈਠੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ॥ ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ਵੇ ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਅਸਾਡਾ ਫਿਟੈ ॥ ਤਨਿ ਫਿਟੈ ਫੇੜ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥ ਮਨਿ ਜੂਠੈ ਚੁਲੀ ਭਰੇਨਿ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥ ਸੁਚਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 471-472}
The above shabd is self-explanatory, guru ji, here in full swing exposing and disclosing the fake practices at the hands of the administrators and how "justice will be done" by the watcher in the woods [God] for nothing is left unrecorded [implied]. It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to "beware", and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !

Japjisahib Ji I quite enjoyed this retreat! Mind you, I've only sailed through, touching but the surface I

Take care
 

japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to "beware", and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !
The difference is clearly surfacing. By your interpretation you are presenting gurmat God as vengeful, jealous where as Guru Nanak God is 'bhakhiya bhao aapar - filled with infinite love, mitha bolda, mera gun avgun n chitrai etc.

Now you compare it with my understanding and then decide. The pankti is, 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ॥
By closely looking at the pankti and the context mentioned by you, I have observed that pankti is not referring to God but to my manh as a first person that whosoever (upathi) ignores the paradigm of God (or does not change his vision as per divine) then sultana (is my demon manh without godly virtues) drags me into superfluous rituals (gha kraida -useless karma). And, 'ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ॥੧੬॥ When mind is involved in superfluous rituals throughout(pilgrimages, ginti minti, auscipious days), he has no time left to request satguru and seek His intellect, thus mind is not able to align with truth to stablize.Thus it depend upon me and my manh and not God either to go for godly virtues or remain manmukh.
 

japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ is that the Giver [God] always keeps giving, but those receiving [jo public] do not last forever. Planet Earth has consumed Waheguru's gifts for yonks, but the Lord has no shortage - bring'em on He declares. In 'bhukhiya bukh n utrey' - the context in which it is applied is to show that the greed of the greedy cannot be extinguished or fulfilled.
Here again, error is being committed, is His gift only eatable items that we are eating from centuries. what about other numerous gift like house, gold job, son etc. etc. , Guru sahib says it is wrong even to think that appetite for hunger of status, greatness, commendation, money, and beauty could ever be quenched even by piling up loads of worldly riches of countless worlds or reaching to the level of Bill Gates, as hunger of mind is wealth and beauty which is limitless and is insatiable, and thus the desire of the hunger to experience God remains a dream.

As per my understanding, when it comes to 'daat'- critical analysis indicates, it relates to 'matt vich rattan jawahar manak jai ik gur ki sikh suni - i.e. gems of divine wisdom and not worldly gifts which cannot make our mind stablized (thir ghar baiso har jan piyare satguru tumreh kaaj swareh - over here satguru is divine and not worldly items). Even otherwise mission of gurbani is how to be sachiar and not to collect worldly good.
 

Original

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The difference is clearly surfacing. By your interpretation you are presenting gurmat God as vengeful, jealous where as Guru Nanak God is 'bhakhiya bhao aapar - filled with infinite love, mitha bolda, mera gun avgun n chitrai etc.

Now you compare it with my understanding and then decide. The pankti is, 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ॥
By closely looking at the pankti and the context mentioned by you, I have observed that pankti is not referring to God but to my manh as a first person that whosoever (upathi) ignores the paradigm of God (or does not change his vision as per divine) then sultana (is my demon manh without godly virtues) drags me into superfluous rituals (gha kraida -useless karma). And, 'ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ॥੧੬॥ When mind is involved in superfluous rituals throughout(pilgrimages, ginti minti, auscipious days), he has no time left to request satguru and seek His intellect, thus mind is not able to align with truth to stablize.Thus it depend upon me and my manh and not God either to go for godly virtues or remain manmukh.
Japjisahib Ji

I'm sorry, you've lost me, where have I said vengeful God ? And pls, relax with this manh imposter, for a kilogram of nerve cells [brain] is all a human really is !

Goodnight Sir
 

Sherdil

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ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ but manh dai paradigm to pasand hi nahi then all this treasure of wisdom is useless.

This line appears on page 2 GGS.

The pauree begins by describing various gunas (qualities, attributes, virtues): Long life, fame, followers and good reputation.

Sans Nadar (glance of grace), these qualities would be negated. Notice the contrast:

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ
Without receiving His Nadar (glance of grace)

ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ
No one would even ask about you

॥ ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
(you would be) below a worm and even sinners would hold you in contempt

The pauree continues...

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ
He turns nirgun (without qualities, virtue) into gun (with quality, virtues). He is the gunvantia (giver of virtues).

ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇ
No one can give qualities / virtues unto Him, because no one is above Him.

Negation of Hankaar (pride) is the takeaway. Even worldly success is unattainable without His Nadar (glance of grace).

The full pauree:

ਜੇ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰੇ ਆਰਜਾ ਹੋਰ ਦਸੂਣੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
जे जुग चारे आरजा होर दसूणी होइ ॥
Je jug cẖāre ārjā hor ḏasūṇī ho▫e.
Though a man's age be equal to four ages and grow even ten times more,

ਨਵਾ ਖੰਡਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
नवा खंडा विचि जाणीऐ नालि चलै सभु कोइ ॥
Navā kẖanda vicẖ jāṇī▫ai nāl cẖalai sabẖ ko▫e.
Even though he be known in the nine continents and all were to walk with him (or follow in his train),

ਚੰਗਾ ਨਾਉ ਰਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਸੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਜਗਿ ਲੇਇ ॥
चंगा नाउ रखाइ कै जसु कीरति जगि लेइ ॥
Cẖanga nā▫o rakẖā▫e kai jas kīraṯ jag le▫e.
and he were to assume good name and obtain praise and renown in the world.

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤ ਵਾਤ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਕੇ ॥
जे तिसु नदरि न आवई त वात न पुछै के ॥
Je ṯis naḏar na āvī ṯa vāṯ na pucẖẖai ke.
If God's gracious glance falls not one him, them, no one would care for him,

ਕੀਟਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸੀ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
कीटा अंदरि कीटु करि दोसी दोसु धरे ॥
Kītā anḏar kīt kar ḏosī ḏos ḏẖare.
he is accounted a vermin amongst worms and even the sinners impute accusations to him.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿ ਗੁਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਣਵੰਤਿਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਦੇ ॥
नानक निरगुणि गुणु करे गुणवंतिआ गुणु दे ॥
Nānak nirguṇ guṇ kare guṇvanṯi▫ā guṇ ḏe.
O Nanak! God grants virtue to the non-virtuous and bestows piety on the pious.

ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇ ॥੭॥
तेहा कोइ न सुझई जि तिसु गुणु कोइ करे ॥७॥
Ŧehā ko▫e na sujẖ▫ī jė ṯis guṇ ko▫e kare. ||7||
I can think of no such one who can show any goodness unto Him.
 

japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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'm sorry, you've lost me, where have I said vengeful God ? And pls, relax with this manh imposter, for a kilogram of nerve cells [brain] is all a human really is
here in full swing exposing and disclosing the fake practices at the hands of the administrators and how "justice will be done" by the watcher in the woods [God] for nothing is left unrecorded [implied]. It is in this context guru maharaj invites the practioners and those who carry out evil deeds to "beware", and that just deserts will in all eventuality be handed out, thus 'ਨਦਰਿ ਉਪਠੀ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ॥ ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥ nadir oopti - to be construed as reversed glance [God's], meaning, the presumption is always in favour, that is, god is good n great and always look favourably on all, but hey you wicked, glance can reverse to strike the right balance in God's providence, where ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾ ਘਾਹੁ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ kings are transformed into blades of grass and ਦਰਿ ਮੰਗਨਿ ਭਿਖ ਨ ਪਾਇਦਾ when they beg from door to door no one will give alms- wake up !

Guru sahib have addressed God as Mother and Father (qu maat pita ham barek tairai), do the parents curse their children or call them wicked and punish or deprive them of any facilities irrespective of any wrong doing. If your interpretation is not presenting God as vengeful then I have nothing to add.
 

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