The Ishna of today, how can she be known, say in 500 years ? One way is through photographs, memoirs, historical archives, etc etc, yes ! Other ways of knowing the 21st century girl from Australasia is through various disciplines of social sciences, notably, sociology. That is to say, the society in which she lived, the culture to which she belonged and the environment at the time. These are conditions which shaped Ishna the person, taken together with her genetic make can reproduce 21st century Ishna. What she wrote on SPN was the direct result of her biological constitution [genetic behaviour, hormonial shifts and molecular variations] culture [learned behaviour, ideas, habits, technigues]] and cognitive ability [psychological behaviour, mind set]. Similarly, if the Banikars bani is to be read and interpreted correctly, then the same must be studied.Original Ji, perhaps you could start a series here with information about reconstructing, as you said, "the past in which the Banikar lived, that is, social, cultural, environmental together with the Banikars personal status, qualifications, inclinations and so on."
When I started learning about Gurbani I became disillusioned/out of energy a few times because Gurbani itself is hard enough to comprehend, but when you're not from the Punjabi or even Indian culture, and you don't have the history and mythology in your psyche from growing up hearing about it, it seems like you need to learn all about those old cultures first before even getting to the Gurbani before even getting to the practice of Sikhi and developing connection to Naam. Phew!
So if you could share you knowledge with the forum I think it would be very helpful.
At the same time I think an outsider can sometimes spot the message in Gurbani more easily since they don't have the same degree of cultural baggage as some other people may have.
Gurfateh
Bad Translations And Interpretations-how Do They Affect Us?
- Thread starter Harry Haller
- Start date
- Replies 116
- Reads 27K
- May 9, 2006
- 3,261
- 5,192
In 2000 years, when 1500-1700s Punjabi culture has faded into the murky mists of time, will people still be required to do such study?
To me, the message in the Gurbani is timeless. That is why it's so critically important now to pick out the philosophy from the culture-bound religion so it is more portable throughout time. This is my mission, and I know haters gonna hate that, but it is what it is.
The last thing I want to imagine is, in 2000 years, society looking at Sikhi like it does Christianity and Islam when they say today that those religions are for 2000 year old desert dwellers.
I totally agree that the first step is to understand the life and times of the contributors to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so we understand the messages they where trying to get across.
By the same token, the messages can largely stand on their own. imho.
To me, the message in the Gurbani is timeless. That is why it's so critically important now to pick out the philosophy from the culture-bound religion so it is more portable throughout time. This is my mission, and I know haters gonna hate that, but it is what it is.
The last thing I want to imagine is, in 2000 years, society looking at Sikhi like it does Christianity and Islam when they say today that those religions are for 2000 year old desert dwellers.
I totally agree that the first step is to understand the life and times of the contributors to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so we understand the messages they where trying to get across.
By the same token, the messages can largely stand on their own. imho.
- Jan 31, 2011
- 5,769
- 8,194
- 54
Chazji..
I have read enough to form an opinion.
I have no wish to read the Koran, I have no interest in heaven, I do not wish to live in a palace,
there is some truth I guess, its the traditions, rituals, superstitions and general mumbo jumbo that puts me off.
...so i'm sure some positivity will come from reading the bible, koran, SGGS Ji and anything else that inspires you to think about what this shizzle we called creation is all about in the big scheme of things
I do not think about what this shizzle is, I have a fairly good idea that it is about energy and consonance, and I certainly do not think I would find anything of interest to me personally in the bible. The Abrahamic god is a jealous, angry god, it goes at odds with my own view that god goes way beyond the understanding of human emotion.
as close as possible is not good enough, imagine if the word sugar was swapped for salt in a recipe, its a small mistake, but it changes everything.
you see, I do not see it this way, we are the wind, we blow this way and that depending on what thief is in control, on our health, our financial situation, we go in whatever direction we wish, in my opinion, Creator is the anchor. You say intention, I say agenda, may I ask what your ultimate agenda is with regards religion?
speak for yourself, I am not indebted to them, they have created generations of Abrahamic Vedic Sikhs
- Jan 31, 2011
- 5,769
- 8,194
- 54
Originalji,
I can see now where we differ, for you Sikhism is a reason to have a love affair with the world, with the whole of living, you rise high embracing creation whilst cosmic orchestras play the tunes of living on Saturn's rings, the universe is your playground and you play, and you play well, its warm, its cosy, its beautiful!
Whereas for me, it just helps stop the screaming
keep doing what you're doing then harry ji.
if you're happy with it, then no one can tell you to change your thinking and direction.
i'm happy with my direction so i have no reason to change also...
God bless ji
- Jan 31, 2011
- 5,769
- 8,194
- 54
I do not believe anyone has ever asked you to
forgot to answer on of you question
"I say agenda, may I ask what your ultimate agenda is with regards religion?"
not sure how to describe this...cus its a strange feeling...
... to find out, to know, to seek what is causing this deep longing within me to know what this whole show is about...this feeling is making me question what it is i am doing in my life...i need to know where this is coming from...what it is....why is it that i am starting to question if what i see, hear, touch and breath and smell, is not the full story....? i need to know....and i don't want to wait until i die expecting to find out then....no no no...needs to be 'now'
not sure if that is an agenda...but that's the only way i can describe it...
God bless
"I say agenda, may I ask what your ultimate agenda is with regards religion?"
not sure how to describe this...cus its a strange feeling...
... to find out, to know, to seek what is causing this deep longing within me to know what this whole show is about...this feeling is making me question what it is i am doing in my life...i need to know where this is coming from...what it is....why is it that i am starting to question if what i see, hear, touch and breath and smell, is not the full story....? i need to know....and i don't want to wait until i die expecting to find out then....no no no...needs to be 'now'
not sure if that is an agenda...but that's the only way i can describe it...
God bless
H - box-up the PC trade n move over to creative writing ! Too good ! How damn poetic, capturing me the way you did is awesome ! Mind you, I've had the rough n tumble of life, but all in all - life otherwise is beautiful.
Well said, sign of a good student [Sikh]. OK Ishna, with regard to the understanding and the interpretation of Gurbani, one must know something of the authors, social, environmental, cultural and biological background to ascertain their character, disposition and personality.
For example, let us assume that you, Ishna G [IG] is a judge presiding over a certain court of law and after a night of considerable incidents within a small town, you have to deal with several cases of serious domestic assaults. Most of these cases look straightforward, but two of them turned out to present particular difficulty. One involves a husband who tried to strangle his wife; the other a wife who went for her husband with a kitchen knife. Both assaults were deliberate, and neither was in self- defence. The court’s resident psychologist has uncovered interesting evidence, which seem to provide the basis of strong pleas in mitigation (less blameworthy).
In the first case it turns out that the man was conscripted (compulsory) during a recent war and put through intensive training designed to condition him to attack on the slightest provocation. Before that time his character had been quite different, and violence had been completely alien to him. In the second case it turned out that the woman was at the time suffering [condition] from unusually severing pre-menstrual tension and that at other times of the month she is known to everyone as a model of calm and restraint.
IG would accept the argument [because you yourself was a living example of hormonal imbalances ?] from the defendants counsel that such things as conditioning and hormones can influence character and behaviour?
Suppose now then, you having accepted that these two defendants were not responsible for their actions and therefore should not be punished and have now before you the counsel for the remaining eight. How might they argue for leniency on behalf of their clients?
Well, one of the Solicitors might say to you “IG, if an action can be explained by environmental influences, such as military training, then the soldier is not blameworthy for his behaviour and likewise the woman did not choose her hormonal constitution and therefore is not at fault. It then flows from this argument that in the case of my client, Miss X who is charged with a violence offence, is a woman brought up in a violent family [social] where she was never taught to control her temper and, had she been brought up in a different family, she would have acted quite differently and would not have committed this crime. She obviously has to be let off for the same reason as the soldier and the woman. And in fact similar arguments apply to the rest of the cases of all the defendants. All my clients are the products of their physical make up (hormones and the likes) and their environment, and those factors all entirely beyond their control provide the explanation of all their actions”.
It seems then, that you face a difficult problem. On the one hand it does seem quite unfair to hold people responsible for actions that were caused by influences entirely beyond their control. And on the other hand, once we start to allow this kind of excuse to kick in there seems no reasonable point at which to stop.
The moral of it is, the conditions [social, environmental! cultural and biological] operating at the time of the Banikars lives plays a significant role in the way they behaved, thought and acted - and produced Gurbani. With this information, both the reader and the interpreter are best placed to draw the right conclusions, inferences and correct interpretations.
Original Ji,
on the basis of your analysis then...
what is the social, environmental! cultural and biological conditioning that Waheguru would be under?
if as per the Guru Ji's own words...they wrote what came to them then are we to assume that what trickled down from sachkhand was then affected by the social, environmental! cultural and biological conditions that the Guru Ji's were under.
and therefore the complete message is its original form was not written?
i can't go by this explanation or reasoning...
for solutions to the world to be successful, the solution has to come from beyond the influences of Maya...from beyond any conditioning, to help us to rise above and make lasting and effective changes to the world around us...
yes, what Guru Ji Wrote as per Waheguru's will would have been geared towards the social, environmental! cultural and biological conditions of that time and for the future (as waheguru is beyond time) ... but the message surely could not have been affected by those conditions or the conditioning.
We also have to assume that as Ego was minimal in the Guru Ji's (enough to allow their human experience as individuals to occur), that they're un-consious, sub-consious and super-conscious domain would not have been affected by what was around them...
to thin otherwise, would mean...the Guru Ji's message would be different if they were born today. What does that say about the message? does the process with which a soul returns back home change over time? does the Word\Shabad that resonated within us change over time? what part should i dismiss as being conditioned by their time and what part of gurbani is timeless and unaffected by worldy conditions? As i truth seeker who is here in the present moment...i would really need to know this
in my opinion, when it comes to Gurbani, we must forget time and place...
we must forget physicality of Guru Ji...the Word is the Word..
everything that occurred on the physical plane (the guru ji's, the wars, the difficulties, the challenges, the storyline....all occurred to allow the path/tunnel for the timeless and unaffected Shabad to manifest in written form for us seekers
just my thoughts, this is such an interesting topic
Last edited:
My dearest Chaz GOriginal Ji,
on the basis of your analysis then...
what is the social, environmental! cultural and biological conditioning that Waheguru would be under?
if as per the Guru Ji's own words...they wrote what came to them then are we to assume that what trickled down from sachkhand was then affected by the social, environmental! cultural and biological conditions that the Guru Ji's were under.
and therefore the complete message is its original form was not written?
i can't go by this explanation or reasoning...
for solutions to the world to be successful, the solution has to come from beyond the influences of Maya...from beyond any conditioning, to help us to rise above and make lasting and effective changes to the world around us...
yes, what Guru Ji Wrote as per Waheguru's will would have been geared towards the social, environmental! cultural and biological conditions of that time and for the future (as waheguru is beyond time) ... but the message surely could not have been affected by those conditions or the conditioning.
We also have to assume that as Ego was minimal in the Guru Ji's (enough to allow their human experience as individuals to occur), that they're un-consious, sub-consious and super-conscious domain would not have been affected by what was around them...
to thin otherwise, would mean...the Guru Ji's message would be different if they were born today. What does that say about the message? does the process with which a soul returns back home change over time? does the Word\Shabad that resonated within us change over time? what part should i dismiss as being conditioned by their time and what part of gurbani is timeless and unaffected by worldy conditions? As i truth seeker who is here in the present moment...i would really need to know this
just my thoughts, this is such an interesting topic
The rationale behind writing the environmental and genetic conditioning together with social engineering was to show how the human [we] when fully developed as a being is but a product of the above 3. Insofar, Waheguru a spiritual entity, it doesn't I'm afraid gets caught up within the 3 but remains independent of it, that is, God consciousness [chautha pad].
I was from an academic view point asserting the importance of researching the human past to interpret Gurbani in it's nativeness, that is to say, understanding the culture, the society, and the personal circumstances of the composers of Gurbani. However, the aesthetic and the mystical experiences expressed can only be realised through the grace of God, more commonly referred to as, "state of grace".
Spiritual science of the soul starts where the intellectual one stops.
Hope I've been able to clarify ! More another time - till then - wkwf.
PS - Intersteller n gravity
thanks for the reply ji...always well received and very elegantly written unlike my posts
whats on the lunch menu today? saag and makee de roti? gourmet excellence...i really need to learn how to make saag...
god bless ji.
- May 9, 2006
- 3,261
- 5,192
Chaz Ji, thanks for asking a question I was pondering, as well.
I think it is enough to understand the audience the Guru was communicating with, really. To understand their metaphors in the context of the times. But the message itself needs to be focused upon rather than 500 year old Punjabi society. imho.
I think it is enough to understand the audience the Guru was communicating with, really. To understand their metaphors in the context of the times. But the message itself needs to be focused upon rather than 500 year old Punjabi society. imho.
my current opinion on this...it might change..but i hope it doesn't
the audience is us....only the present moment exists...Gurbani exists in this present moment..for us...not for anyone else...it's timeless...it has to be no other way...it can't be no other way
forget about anyone that ever existed...we are the audience...it is not something written by a human being, it is the timeless Word which was channeled through a physical body and written.
something constant had to be placed in a changing world...an anchor...SGGS ji is that anchor.
i don;t think i ever want to read it and add further complexities like possible social interferences...the Guru Ji's might have done this in their daily actions with regards to what they faaced and challenged etc etc...but the written word had to be something that in its entirety is potent no mater what time it is looked upon.
Just my feelings...
i think it would be interesting to know which shabads you think were intended solely for the past generations...and what metaphors you think were used solely for that time frame...that would make an interesting discussion
Last edited:
- Jan 31, 2011
- 5,769
- 8,194
- 54
I am with Chazji on this, the message is and always was timeless in my opinion. I think once you start taking into account local factors, the opportunity for further distortion can only increase.
Thank you Chaz Jithanks for the reply ji...always well received and very elegantly written unlike my posts
whats on the lunch menu today? saag and makee de roti? gourmet excellence...i really need to learn how to make saag...
god bless ji.
There is an exception to the rule here, that is, it's not always the prose, but the subject-matter which takes precedence. Some of your simple expressions from a range of complex ideas are beautifully worded, particularly the spiritual. Extracting from the intricate the essential elements is an art and you've got it. How ? Because of your consonance with the ultimate reality, namely, God. We at SPN are, I suppose, connected in some respect to the "word" of God and that in itself is evident of His grace upon us. How we present that to the rest of the community is in itself a true contribution albeit sugarcoated subjectively.
But yes, the elegance in writing touches the parts which ordinary writing don't. Consider the following: one beautifully sunny day, I'm on my way into central Lobdon via the underground for a business meeting. On the way out of the subway , I see a "homeless soul", towards which, I find myself involuntarily walking. Seated on the floor with a bowler hat placed before him for donations, sleeved hand written note on an A4 hung suspended around his neck, "BLIND PLEASE HELP". As I bent down to put some of my loose change into the hat, he touched my feet. Having placed the change into the hat, I removed the A4 paper from the plastic sleeve and wrote on the reverse what I felt the message should reflect. Neatly, I placed the paper back into the sleeve and headed to work. At the close of business several hours later, I headed home. To my surprise, the blind beggar was still there with his bowler hat dripping with loose change. I sighed a sign of relief n gratitude and felt momentarily "wow". I went and stood before him, he touched my feet, feeling them as it were, and said "what did you write?".
"It's a beautiful day, I can't see" I replied and headed towards the platform.
The moral is, "how" you say it. Gur Ghar chose Gurbani to say it the way they felt it would best illustrate meaning n subject - poetically.
More another time - I'm in Midlands tomorrow !
- May 9, 2006
- 3,261
- 5,192
I think it's important to understand the life and times of the contributors to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, because the poetry delivers its message by often referencing examples from the environment, culture and beliefs at the time. Sometimes it's entirely possible to get the message from the example without having much knowledge about the background. Indeed, sometimes it is even delivered better this way.
Grasping the message, which is timeless, is the important part, not dwelling too much on the packaging in which it was delivered.
Grasping the message, which is timeless, is the important part, not dwelling too much on the packaging in which it was delivered.
- May 9, 2006
- 3,261
- 5,192
Who should provide the example, me or Original Ji?
- May 9, 2006
- 3,261
- 5,192
An example about inaccurate translation and how they can affect the Gurbani is in paurhi 38 of Japji Sahib. Compare the second to last line.
Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa's translation
Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation
So which is it; a passive effect of karma, or our active actions here and now? I feel that Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation is more likely to be accurate, but if you have only read the former, far more common translation, you may think it is up "karma".
Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa's translation
Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation
ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥
Jaṯ pāhārā ḏẖīraj suni▫ār.
Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.
ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥
Ahraṇ maṯ veḏ hathī▫ār.
Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.
ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥
Bẖa▫o kẖalā agan ṯap ṯā▫o.
With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat.
ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥
Bẖāʼndā bẖā▫o amriṯ ṯiṯ dẖāl.
In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name,
ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
Gẖaṛī▫ai sabaḏ sacẖī taksāl.
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.
ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥
Jin ka▫o naḏar karam ṯin kār.
Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.
This is the daily routine of those on whom God casts His gracious glance.
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38||
O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38||
Jaṯ pāhārā ḏẖīraj suni▫ār.
Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.
ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥
Ahraṇ maṯ veḏ hathī▫ār.
Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.
ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥
Bẖa▫o kẖalā agan ṯap ṯā▫o.
With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat.
ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥
Bẖāʼndā bẖā▫o amriṯ ṯiṯ dẖāl.
In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name,
ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
Gẖaṛī▫ai sabaḏ sacẖī taksāl.
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.
ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥
Jin ka▫o naḏar karam ṯin kār.
Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.
This is the daily routine of those on whom God casts His gracious glance.
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38||
O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38||
So which is it; a passive effect of karma, or our active actions here and now? I feel that Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation is more likely to be accurate, but if you have only read the former, far more common translation, you may think it is up "karma".
❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM
❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM
Latest Activity
-
-
How different are messages of Buddha and Founding Guru Nanak of Sikhs!
- Latest: GurpreetSinghShinh
-
-
Translations Of Sri Guru Granth Sahib: The Difficult And The Contradictory
- Latest: GurpreetSinghShinh
-
