Is there any honour in killing for 'honour'?

rajneesh madhok · #1 (**permalink**) 23-Jun-2010, 12:54 PM

Is there any honour in killing for 'honour'?

22 June 2010, 01:05pm ISTThe growing incidents of honour killing in different states, and now in the national capital, have proven that caste and its brutal ramifications are still prevalent in India. Many of us are plainly baffled by the incidents, often arguing that the phenomenon is at odds with the new and resurgent India that we hope and dream about. But is it actually for the sake of family honour? Who gets to decide what is honourable? What about our collective honour as a society? Will any law against honour killing be effective in the absence of a genuine will on the part of the people themselves? We cannot expect our political leaders to answer such questions in an honest manner. They have displayed their abhorrent dilly-dallying over it, preferring silence or collaboration for electoral gains. The onus now clearly lies on the responsible citizens of the country to raise their voices against a practice that defies the idea of an inclusive and tolerant India.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/people-and-opinion/31107-is-there-any-honour-killing-honour.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31107

Is there any honour in killing for 'honour'?- Debate - The Times of India

Rajneesh Madhok ***

kds1980 · #2 (**permalink**) 23-Jun-2010, 13:56 PM

India is caste based society and no caste want its daughter marrying boy of other caste
Whether people accept it or not but rural people support this type of thing and in democracy what matters is numbers.These people have numbers

Narayanjot Kaur · #3 (**permalink**) 23-Jun-2010, 19:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanwardeep Singh

India is caste based society and no caste want its daughter marrying boy of other caste
Whether people accept it or not but rural people support this type of thing and in democracy what matters is numbers.These people have numbers

Kanwardeep Singh ji

Are you therefore predicting that this will continue for another generation after the other, and that there is no point in trying to do anything about it?

kds1980 · #4 (**permalink**) 23-Jun-2010, 19:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur

Kanwardeep Singh ji

Are you therefore predicting that this will continue for another generation after the other, and that there is no point in trying to do anything about it?

I don't know but as long people keep saying proud to be jatt,or proud to be gujjar then it will get worse.Today times now channel interviewed some people and many justified honour killings some are youngsters of this rural type background.One Uncle was clearly saying that with these killings youngsters will get a lesson not marry against their parents wishes.

Narayanjot ji

beleive it or not if you leave handful of westernised people the large majority of Indians still see love marriages as bad.If a Girl opt for love marriage then
she is considered as characterless and become topic of discussion among
relatives and her parents loose all the respect they earned through their life

Narayanjot Kaur · #5 (**permalink**) 23-Jun-2010, 19:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanwardeep Singh

I don't know but as long people keep saying proud to be jatt,or proud to be gujjar then it will get worse.Today times now channel interviewed some people and many justified honour killings some are youngsters of this rural type background.One Uncle was clearly saying that with these killings youngsters will get a lesson not marry against their parents wishes.

Narayanjot ji

beleive it or not if you leave handful of westernised people the large majority of Indians still see love marriages as bad.If a Girl opt for love marriage then
she is considered as characterless and become topic of discussion among
relatives and her parents loose all the respect they earned through their life

Kanwardeep Singh ji - It is not a matter of whether I believe it or not. Statistics are that 92-95 percent of all marriages are arranged in India.

How does a society address a growing problem of violence in the face of ingrained traditions that equate blood-letting with preserving honor. I don't think that discussion has taken place.

Believe it or not, there is an old Italian saying, "Blood washes blood." In other words, a dirty problem could be cleaned up with a few honor killings-- Yes in Italy too. Eventually it disappeared but does continue in pockets of traditional life.

kds1980 · #6 (**permalink**) 23-Jun-2010, 19:53 PM

Quote:

How does a society address a growing problem of violence in the face of ingrained traditions that equate blood-letting with preserving honor. I don't think that discussion has taken place.

The fact is society itself is sanctioning this.When the case of first honour killing happened in Haryana and marriage was in same gotra, the politicians also went their and said that we also support amendment in Hindu marriage act that same gota marriage can never happen and these politicans were not villagers one of them is highly educated young industrialist Naveen jindal who said this.Even chief minister has said that youngsters should not marry within same gotra .So all politicians know that a large majority is against these marriage's and whoever try support these marriage's he/she will loose plenty of votes

Now coming to law the court has already ordered Death penalty to honour killers in one case there is no punishment higher than this

kds1980 · #7 (**permalink**) 24-Jun-2010, 03:06 AM

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/honour-ki...3.html?from=tn

New Delhi: Two days after the national capital saw the death of three people in a case of honour killing, one of the victims' relatives spoke out to the media on Wednesday and justified the murders.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31107

"Killing some one is not right but this incident is not wrong. It is the right thing to do for the society. This is not wrong and we support it," said Dharamveer Nagar, paternal uncle of one of the girls' killed.

There was no remorse, no fear for the law. In Wazirpur village of Delhi there has been a sanction for the murders. The people are silently supporting those who killed Monica, Kuldeep and Shobha in cold blood.

What Mandeep's relatives say are actually sentiments expressed by their community. Most people living in the village are against their sons and daughters marrying someone from within the village. Some even go to the extent of saying that they would kill their children if they dare to defy their customs.

Marrying outside one's caste many would think, is an old world mindset. What is shocking in Wazirpur village is that that mindset has been passed on to the young. Thirty-five-year-old Charan Singh agrees that death is the only punishment for those who marry outside their community in the village.

"I will kill my children if they marry defy me and marry within the village community," says Charan Singh.

Almost every one in the village echoes this sentiment. A misplaced sense of honour seems more important than anything else.

Monica's elopement has had a bad affect on the village. Now every youngster will defy the family," says a villager Mahender Singh Khari.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31107

The police have now announced a reward of Rs 50,000 for each of the suspects Ankit, Mandeep and Nakul. Preliminary medical reports suggest that all three victims were killed on Sunday night.

"Any one helping the police or informing us about the whereabouts of the three suspects will be rewarded Rs 50,000 for each accused," said NS Bundela, Deputy Commissioner of Police (DCP) North West Delhi said.

While the hunt is still on for the three suspects, the bigger question of a mindset that places honour before life is even more frightening.

rajneesh madhok · #8 (**permalink**) 24-Jun-2010, 13:06 PM

Honour Killing? Why? The murderers believe the victim has brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community.
Now the question arise.

Whether the defence of honour justifies killing a person whose behaviour dishonours their clan or family.
Whether the acts of violence, murder committed by family members against their children those have brought dishonour upon the family is justified?

Honour Suicides:
1. If honour killing is justified then Honour Suicides are also justified. Last year 80 Iraqi women in Diyala province committed suicide, to escape the shame of having been raped. ----- They chose to become suicide bombers to escape the shame, their rapes were planned in advance by 51 year old Iraqi women Samira Jassim, who confessed to Iraqi police that she oraganized their rapes so she could later persuade each of them to become a suicide bomber to escape their shame.
Point of consideration:
1. If the couple has the knowledge that they will be brutally murdered by family members on indulging in love affairs and marriage. What will be outcome of this trend. Whether the society is protecting their girls and women or they are giving birth to a new problem.
2. The main cause of spreading of terrorism is unlawful society.
Opinion:
I agree to the point that the boundaries of society should not be crossed but the killing is not the solution to the problem. There are hundreds of cases annually in Pakistan. Where the couple don’t get away without being punished---The courts sanction them under religious contexts.

KARO-KARI: PAKISTAN

- Honour killing is known locally in Pakistan as Karo-Kari. In Pakistan three girls were buried alive last year for refusing arranged marriages. In Pakistan the Honour killing gets high level support, despite the Human Rights organizations condemn such incidents worldwide.

INDIA:
In India honour killing is in tradition in Punjba, Rajasthan, Haryana and Bihar. More than 90% cases of Honour killings are reported in these states. Honour killings are rare in South India, and the western Indian states of Maharshtra and Gujarat. Kindly note ther is no honour killings in West Bengal in over 100 years.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31107

Solution to the problem:
1. The reformists should come forward and should play active role and influence the young generation and the society and guide the society with their teachings that the killing is not the solution to the problem.
2. National Commission for women should address the issues in North India. The constitutional, legal and other provisions as well as challeges women face should be highlighted.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31107

Kanwardeepji,
1. I come to point as per your post. Whether the killing justified by the victim’s relatives is justified.
2. Is Mr. Dharmveer Nagar’s statement on the basis of society is justified?
3. If we shall not remorse on our bad deeds and there is no fear of law then whether we our coming generations will get justice.
4. Why the sanctions on murders have been given by the society members?
5. Why the people are silently supporting those have murdered Monica, Kuldeep and Shoba?
6. Supposing that we don’t accept the relations As most of the community people justifies the murder But the question is that whether murder is the solution to the problem.
7. If the children dared to defy the family customs then the only solution to it is to get them murdered and the society will support that crime.
8. Suppose we don’t accept that the children should marry outside one’s caste. The Casteism has been abolished by our Gurus, teachers. How we developed this mindset. Why the mindset has been passed on the young generation only. There are so many ways to persuade the young generation not to indulge in such type of practices even then the murder as punishment is not the solution to the problem.
9. Whether the statement of Charan Singh “I will kill my children if they marry defy me and marry within the village community”---Is it justified.
10. Do the friends support this misplaced sense of honour.
11. Why the question of elopement arise.

Whether the mindset that places honour before life is not frightening and unjustified? Kindly comment.

Rajneesh Madhok

kds1980 · #9 (**permalink**) 25-Jun-2010, 00:27 AM

Rajneesh ji

India is a very ancient civilisation and it has customs and traditions going back to hundreds of years.Not all honour killings are happening because marriage out of caste .some are happening because of marrying within Same gotra and some because marrying within same village.With the concept of love marriage and liberal thinking is getting popular in village's
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31107
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=31107
Its obvious that result could be some time voilent.