Give me your honest opinions.

thecoopes · #1 (**permalink**) 13-Feb-2005, 20:47 PM

Can anyone see the irony?
Today in Britain we have peoples from all over the world wanting to live here. All want and expect that their cultures be nurtured. Let any voice be raised by the indigenous population that they are uncomfortable with these foreign cultures and all hell breaks loose! The Asians are by far the most vocal in their demand that we accept their cultures. I find that these festivals that are celebrated are an anathema to me and yet my view is a poor second to the rights of my new fellow citizens! They only have to scream their civil liberties are being infringed and my view is now turned into me being accused of racism.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/paganism/1769-give-me-your-honest-opinions.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=1769

The report below is from Reuters Sunday 13 Feb 05

BHOPAL, India (Reuters) – Hard line Hindus have vowed to disrupt Saint Valentine's Day celebrations in India's central state of Madhya Pradesh, saying the Western love festival was a violation of India's traditional culture.
Saint Valentine's Day has become increasingly popular in India in recent years, led by retailers selling red balloons, velvet pillows and teddy bears to mark the festival.
But the growing popularity of the day in officially secular, but mainly Hindu, India has in recent years sparked countrywide protests which have sometimes turned violent.
"We will oppose it tooth and nail because the concept of Valentine's Day celebrations has come from the West and through it an attempt is being made to spoil Indian culture," said Devendra Rawat, a member of the Bajrang Dal, on Saturday.

Can anyone see the Irony here? Or is it just me?

John

CaramelChocolate · #2 (**permalink**) 13-Feb-2005, 23:04 PM

Being an Englishman I fully understand where you are coming from and I agree. I guess we have to be proud that our country is so multi-cultural and accepting of others, but the problem is, are we loosing traditional English culture in the process and is this a good thing or a bad thing?

ravisingh · #3 (**permalink**) 20-Feb-2005, 04:24 AM

Interesting issue.

I have to disagree with the both of you. Although I am from Canada and can't really say too much about the situation there I will breifly offer my views on assimilation vs integration and the Canadian situation as I see it.

When speaking of integrating immigrants into a nation it is important to see it as form of a negotiation. The hosting culture "agrees" to make adjustments for the minority group and the minority group of course is already making adjustments. This is in stark contrast to assimilating a minority group where the onus is entirely on the minority group to conform. Assimilation most often leads to heightened ethnic/racial tensions whereas integration tends to lead to more harmonized relations between groups. The integration models is ultimately more respectful. Of course the immigrant minority groups make a number of changes (language, values, etc.) whereas the majority group is asked to make very minor ones (usually festivals, etc.)

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=1769
I am interested to hear from the both of you which "English" traditions are being lost.

When speaking on these issues I think it is important to look at various indicators of the success/failure of both strategies (assimilation vs integration). Using the Canadian experience I can list a few: 1)language use; 2)political participation; 3)rates of citizenship vs permanent residency. Now if we look at the figures for the above 3 indicators (there are many more that I can't think of at present) before Canada adopted an integration vs assimilation strategy we find that they have all increased remarkably after integration was adopted if we use the asian groups as an example. The number of immigrants to Canada who took courses to learn and eventually become proficient in the use of French or Englsh in Canada increased remarkably, asian immigrants voted more often and held public office far more than before (the multicultural act) and more asians took on citizenship vs just being immigrants. It seems to me that integration has certainly been a better approach then assimilation given the Canadian example.

CaramelChocolate · #4 (**permalink**) 20-Feb-2005, 04:30 AM

RaviSingh I never said English traditions are being lost, I said are we losing English traditions?
I do think that in a multicultural society, all cultures will be watered down to some extent [not a bad thing] due to integration.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=1769
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=1769
Look at Americanised Islam... they have t-shirts/baseball about Allah... but Muslims in Asia do not do that.

ravisingh · #5 (**permalink**) 20-Feb-2005, 06:30 AM

I apologize Caramel Chocolate I guess I misunderstood your statement that "as and Englishmen [I] agree" and I read you as saying through the rest of your post that English traditions are indeed being lost but this may or not be a bad thing.

I agree with you that "cultures" will be watered down to some extent. But supposed tranditions are always changing and my experience in Asian countries is that they are watering down their traditions far more rapidly and consistently then immigrants from those same countries in Canada.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=1769
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=1769

I still don't understand how traditions are being "lost" though. For example you cite T-shirts and caps. What tradition is being lost here --the tradition of NOT making caps and t-shirts? Even thecoopes's post cites an article about a fringe hindu group in India not endorsing Valenite's day (hardly a tradition of any sort but rather a creation of corporations) there not in Britain. What is being "lost"?

CaramelChocolate · #6 (**permalink**) 20-Feb-2005, 17:43 PM

When I mean being lost, I mean being watered down all because of the existance of other cultures..
But hey, I can't see myself giving up tea, pie and mash anytime soon

thecoopes · #7 (**permalink**) 23-Feb-2005, 21:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravisingh

Interesting issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravisingh

I have to disagree with the both of you. Although I am from Canada and can't really say too much about the situation there I will breifly offer my views on assimilation vs integration and the Canadian situation as I see it.

When speaking of integrating immigrants into a nation it is important to see it as form of a negotiation. The hosting culture "agrees" to make adjustments for the minority group and the minority group of course is already making adjustments. This is in stark contrast to assimilating a minority group where the onus is entirely on the minority group to conform. Assimilation most often leads to heightened ethnic/racial tensions whereas integration tends to lead to more harmonized relations between groups. The integration models is ultimately more respectful. Of course the immigrant minority groups make a number of changes (language, values, etc.) whereas the majority group is asked to make very minor ones (usually festivals, etc.)

No no no, It would be wonderful if those that chose to come to my homeland either to escape poverty, persecution or just a general desire for freedom did make some attempt to address their responsibility to show some sort of desire not to pi*s the general population off. We have in Britain a toady leftwing government that is falling over itself to suck up to this multicultural madness, so the spectre of immigrant cultures being rammed down the throats of the British population in a frenzied orgy of kiss ****, while anything British that could possible be a cause for offence is stamped on with all the vigour of Sergio Berria, and believe me these people find plenty of things that offend them!

I am interested to hear from the both of you which "English" traditions are being lost.
No not lost, destroyed. The fabric that makes up any countries history, traditions, culture and the like is not just the big things like the bricks and mortar or the line of Kings- Queens etc. It’s the everyday things like our language, a language that is global, our national celebrations like St Georges day, our flag, peoples freedom to disagree or question, parts of our own country being no go areas because your White, basic things that are accepted in an Anglo Saxon culture.

·Our language, go to any doctors surgery or hospital, public building and you will find that we produce information in all the Asian languages and now eastern European, that we have Asians openly boasting that they don’t every have to speak English! The madness of subcultures growing as separate identities within our country so that we now have a country not only made up with Scotland, Wales and England but every other immigrant culture being allowed to become micro cultures with some even demanding to have their own law.

· We have celebrations of festivals by the Chinese, the Asians and every other immigrant culture. But see how the English are made to feel if they want to celebrate St George’s day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

· Disaffected Muslims burn our National flag in our capital city and this is accepted. They abhor this flag and what it stands for, to the extent that this kiss **** government does it’s best to minimise its display.

· When the immigrant community complains we are told we need to change to accommodate their views. When we complain we are told we’re racists.

· Asians boasting they don’t see a white face in their communities and them becoming no go areas if your whites!!!

· Ancient parks with 200 year old statues of wild boars being targeted by immigrant fanatics because the find the statue offensive!!

When speaking on these issues I think it is important to look at various indicators of the success/failure of both strategies (assimilation vs integration). Using the Canadian experience I can list a few: 1)language use; 2)political participation; 3)rates of citizenship vs permanent residency. Now if we look at the figures for the above 3 indicators (there are many more that I can't think of at present) before Canada adopted an integration vs assimilation strategy we find that they have all increased remarkably after integration was adopted if we use the asian groups as an example. The number of immigrants to Canada who took courses to learn and eventually become proficient in the use of French or Englsh in Canada increased remarkably, asian immigrants voted more often and held public office far more than before (the multicultural act) and more asians took on citizenship vs just being immigrants. It seems to me that integration has certainly been a better approach then assimilation given the Canadian example.

O if only these people who flood into our country and take our passports that show they are now British, would in actual fact have some allegiance to Britain and a love of being part of a great country with opportunities for all.
The destruction of Britain is also a result of our government seeking to make us a piece in the jigsaw that is the EU super state. Britain and being British is made out to be anathema so for immigrant cultures having their own agenda within this madness is overlooked by the high priests of multicultural madness.

O by the way I know that there are many fine people that were originaly immigrants and are indeed a credit to this country.
But this reply is in respect to the original post about St Valentines day being feared by the Indians as an intrusion into their culture so it needs to be read in the context of that and not stand on its own

Best wishes to all.

ravisingh · #8 (**permalink**) 25-Feb-2005, 12:20 PM

thecoopes,

Just a couple of things:
1)Can you show any indicators that suggest that immigrants are not integrating as well as they used to before? I mentioned a number of clear indicators in the Canadian experience that suggests the very opposite of what you are saying.

2)On the subject of "lost traditions" can you name even one? Last time I checked the language of government is English, the language of commerce is English, all of the holidays are christian, etc.

Quote:

No not lost, destroyed. The fabric that makes up any countries history, traditions, culture and the like is not just the big things like the bricks and mortar or the line of Kings- Queens etc. It’s the everyday things like our language, a language that is global, our national celebrations like St Georges day, our flag, peoples freedom to disagree or question, parts of our own country being no go areas because your White, basic things that are accepted in an Anglo Saxon culture.

The monarchy is still in place, the flag is still the official flag of the country --this has not changed. I would like to hear of your no go areas for whites. My family came to Canada in 1906 and there have been very few places where they could work, live, etc. In fact as recent as 1976 my dad was denied the right to purchase land because the property in that area was "not available to east indians". Anglo Saxon culture is nowhere near being destroyed. Again show me indicators beyond anecdotal information.

Quote:

·Our language, go to any doctors surgery or hospital, public building and you will find that we produce information in all the Asian languages and now eastern European, that we have Asians openly boasting that they don’t every have to speak English! The madness of subcultures growing as separate identities within our country so that we now have a country not only made up with Scotland, Wales and England but every other immigrant culture being allowed to become micro cultures with some even demanding to have their own law.

Isn't the point of having services at all is that they be effective? If you have services that only serve a certain segment of the population extremely ineffective and inequitable? You want to be able to serve as many people as possible and not perpetuate inequalities (a very English tradition by the way one that IMHO clearly outweighs what language a service is provided in). I'll give you a good example again within the Canadian experience. After the unfortunate bombing of an Air India flight in 1985, the federal Canadian police force were not able to crack the case because they could not relate or speak to the community (at the time there were only 2 punjabi speaking officers available in the whole police force!) Only when the Canadian police decided to learn more about the community and hire punjabi language speakers were they able to make any headway. In this case it is clear that by not acknowledging the importance of other cultures/languages the police were not able to do their jobs.

So if you truly are concerned with equity it only makes sense that certain accomodations are made for groups to level the playing field a little.

You seem to believe that a state can be neutral in how it treats all of its diverse group of people. This is not the case. States always give preferental treatment to certain groups/activities. For example, most countries have national art galleries and support the arts but they do not support things like bowling or such activies. In this way, states give preferential treatment to particular groups. If minority groups ask for similar allowances they are villifed in the press and by members of the majority group.

The supposed destruction of English traditions is hardly what you make it out to be but rather the preservation of the most important English tradition of all --valuing equity.

I am not meaning to paint with you a "racist" brush --I know after discussions with you that you are the furthest thing from a racist so if any of my views come across as a villification of you I apologize this is not my intent --chalk it up to quick writing and fatigue (it's 1 in the morning where I am right now!)

Take care,

Ravi Singh

Arvind · #9 (**permalink**) 25-Feb-2005, 21:16 PM

I realize that thecoopes is one of the best contributors on SPN forums, and I like the way, he participates in discussions and asks thought provoking questions with an unbiased mind.

However ravisingh's reply stuck in my mind -

Quote:

In 1976 my dad was denied the right to purchase land because the property in that area was "not available to east indians".

Is that in Canada? That s so open discrimination then!

Regards.