The Ghost of Khalistan

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if i knew who was selling drugs.. would'nt i get that person/persons arrested?

Chemist shops. Now go have them arrested. Send any Sikh teen to widow colony and purchase any drug you want. Send any teen to a bar and have him buy liquor.

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illegal drugs can be bought more openly in canada and USA...still not in punjab ...so what is new and logical my freind is trying to say?

Very wrong. You know nothing of western countries and this is precisely why India, your country, is decades behind. In western countries, one must show appropriate I.D. and paper work in order to purchase cigarettes. Sometimes, police sends an overgrown teenager to buy drugs and if the seller sells the drugs without checking the I.D. his business is closed and he is arrested. This method might be in India but it only exists in papers and not in reality. 80% youth in Punjab smokes and gets high which is not the case in any State of USA or Canada.

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bars - its same all over india... alcohol is a personal choice...one side they talk abt control..why can't parents educate kids??/ aren't there bars in canada or usa or UK ?????

Yes but they are licensed and must follow through lot of paperwork. And they are prohibited from selling to anyone under 21. There are more bars in Punjab then Gurdwaras and Mandirs combined. It is not the same. You need to get out and take a look at the reality. Any kid can buy illegal drugs and liquor in Punjab. Stop stating opinions.

Instead of trying to address the problems caused by the government you are blaming the parents. How foolish. The government holds responsibility. My facts are “illogical” and “biased” whereas yours are “plain truth”. You have confirmed my belief that majority of the Indians at large are narrow minded and blinded by the false “Indian patriotism”.

 
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__________________
ਝੁਕਣ ਲਈ ਨਹੀ ਅੱਖੀਆਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀਆਂ, ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਬਣੀਆਂ ਨੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਖੁਮਾਰੀਆਂ ਲਈ ।
ਦੋਹਾਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਲਈ ਸਿੱਖ ਦਾ ਸੀਸ ਬਣਿਆ, ਜਾਂ ਆਰੀਆਂ ਲਈ ਜਾਂ ਸਰਦਾਰੀਆਂ ਲਈ ।

<<Yes but they are licensed and must follow through lot of paperwork. And they are prohibited from selling to anyone under 21. There are more bars in Punjab then Gurdwaras and Mandirs combined. It is not the same. You need to get out and take a look at the reality. Any kid can buy illegal drugs and liquor in Punjab. Stop stating opinions.>>

stop stating opinions yourself bro, when i told you that this is same across india..period.. the problem is across india..stop showing that there is special persecution in punjab....this is the point i am driving upto...

i do go out in punjab and look at the reality..in fact i have been to most of states of india..heck ....lived there too...


<<Instead of trying to address the problems caused by the government you are blaming the parents. How foolish. The government holds responsibility. My facts are “illogical” and “biased” whereas yours are “plain truth”. You have confirmed my belief that majority of the Indians at large are narrow minded and blinded by the false “Indian patriotism”.>>
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/one-on-one-debates/4623-the-ghost-of-khalistan.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4623

hmm... first things first.. drinking is a personal choice...if parents can't instill values in children....no government can help.....
government can max enforce...and its people who have to make sure govt is accountable..

there is Right to Information act... why don't people use it..i have used it...and believe me..it works...

there is act against corruption...ok hear this...i have used that too..and made sure corrupt people are punished..

government is no single panacea... power in the hand is in the hand of people..activism helps...not arms and guns...

similar to your last line..you still re inforce my understanding that NRIs are much more narrow minded and religiously bigoted than indians.

but i still carry no malice towards any of the NRIs

<Very wrong. You know nothing of western countries and this is precisely why India, your country, is decades behind. In western countries, one must show appropriate I.D. and paper work in order to purchase cigarettes. >>

huh... thanks for telling me that i know nothing..

i am amused..but i donot need to show you my passport to show how many countries i have been to...

drugs are not a paan beedi shop business in western countries..

kids smoke worse stuff than cigarettes ...... now i can't tell you how they get it

Here is my response Tejwant.
Point 1

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What does PURE mean in your understanding? How can we determine who is pure and who is not? Who decides the above and how are we selected?

These questions are philosophical. The only thing that is Pure is Gurmat Naam. Once a person obtains naam from Guru Nanak Sahib, practices Sikh way of life and merges with Waheguru, he/she becomes pure. Khalsa (Roop of Guru Sahib) is also pure. Physical pureness is easily determined but pureness of mind and heart has no limits and I have no power to see how pure one’s mind or heart is.

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Do you think the cities and towns are Gurus established had any spiritual connections to Sikhi or not? Do you think names like Kartarpur, Anandpur, Amritsar, Govindwal and many more have any spiritual connotations in their names? If not, can you pls explain why not? Do you think our Gurus chose any thought process to name these places or they chose them randomly?

I cannot speak for Guru Sahib. His knowledge and thought process has no bounds. Names are chosen to represent a land or a city and they might have religious ties but the name itself does not represent people living in the area. For example, in city Kartarpur not everyone is a Sikh or religious. Some might drink or smoke. First explain to me why are we discussing the name?
Point 2

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Can we have freedom without Khalistan? If not then why not?

No because there is not a single country in the world that represents Sikhi. India represents us as hindus. America will represent us as Americans. Sikhi is out of the picture. Sikhi defines us. Every country has limitations on our religious practices and India though against constitution keeps interfering in our religious affairs. We need the right to wear Kirpan at all places all times. Only time our Gurdwaras were not attacked was when Sikhs ruled Punjab. All other government at some point attacked us, destroyed Gurdwaras and dishonored our women.

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Why have not any 'Pure' Sikh party been able to establish a lasting Govt in Punjab? Would that help in the creation?

I cannot speak on behalf of others and their failures. Governments change over time and so do officials. It is a fact. Which party is a Sikh party and how is it pure?

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Why did not our Gurus that travelled all around the country and also parts of the world from China to Turkey establish Khalistan? Were they wrong then?

Guru Sahib created autonomous areas. What was Anandpur Sahib? What was Kiratpur Sahib, Kartarpur Sahib, Khadur Sahib, Goindwal Sahib? All these were towns established by Guru Sahib and run according to Sikh principles. What was the need if Sikhi is only spiritual? Sikh Gurus had towns, they ran, their own army, their own flag and Sikhs called Guru Sahib "Sachay Paatshah" or True King. Was this not establishing a rule?

Guru Sahib has taught us to become rational and moral beings. Gurbani is not a rule book. Gurbani has no set of rules on many issues such as abortion, cloning, euthanasia etc. If something is not addressed in Gurbani it doesn’t mean it becomes anti-Sikhi. Mission of Guru Sahib is to unite the humanity which can only be done via Sikhi. A country is the need not a destiny. He taught us to fight injustice and for freedom. He taught us to live as Sikhs, as liberators not as hindus. His mission is all about freedom. Guru Nanak Sahib was the greatest freedom fighter ever. He freed the humanity from mental slavery of Islam and hindu rituals. He taught us to sacrifice for truth and raise arms as a last resort. Sikhs are doing exactly the same. They are fighting for freedom and the only solution for us to have a complete freedom is to have a separate homeland. Khalistan is about dignity and honor which we deserve to have. Then how is it against Sikhi? Can there be freedom, and practice of Sikhi without a country? No. Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chalay Hain. No religion can ever flourish and spread without the power of Raj. When Guru Sahib said “Raj Karega Khalsa” He meant the entire world will be ruled by Khalsa. This Raj must begin somewhere. In my opinion, Khalistan will be the beginning of Khalsa Raj and slowly it will spread. What we need to understand is that Guru Sahib never spoke against the concept of Raj. He established Akal Takhat Sahib, a political sovereignty of Sikhs. He gave us Nishaan Sahib and turned the Sikhs into a complete nation. Every nation needs a homeland. I presented the Shabad of Bhagat Fareed Ji because it clearly explains the philosophy of Gurbani. Wearing a Kirpan is our Guru given right and it makes no sense going to Delhi government and asking for this right.

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Why is it the time now to establish Khalistan when our Gurus did not establish it after the sacrifice of our 5th Guru and then of our 9th?

The question is not about why now and why not then but about whether it is wrong or right. Khalistan is the right solution.

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Is it alright to second guess our Gurus because we have a desire now to create the 'Pure' nation for the 'Pure'?

The desire is to have freedom and life of dignity and honor. This is what Guru Sahib has taught us. In today’s world, it can only come from Khalistan.

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Do you think having Khalistan would erase all the above problems when we can not even have an honest SGPC commitee? Where are the 'Pure' commitee members?

Khalistan would put us in much better situation than we are now. No country exists without a problem. Khalistan, in my opinion, will have its problems but those will not be related to Sikhi. We need a Sikh government that represents Sikhs. SGPC is highly infiltrated by the government and directly controlled by Badal who is a puppet of BJP.
Point 3
This section deals with political structure of Khalistan and let me be clear that I am not a representative of any government. My statements are solely my opinions and understanding. I hold no responsibility for future and give no guarantee.

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Would people from other religions have the right to become the heads of the Khalistan or only 'Pure' Sikhs would be allowed?

The question is not about pureness but about leaders of Khalistan. Only Sikhs will be the highest leaders of Khalistan. Guru Sahib gave His authority to Panj Pyare to lead the Khalsa Panth. Hence only Panj Pyare will have this right not any non-Sikh or any individual Sikh. Keep in mind that I am only talking about highest authority.

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How about the dirty shaven Sikhs? Would they have any role in shaping the country?

First of all, no clean shaven or mona can be a Sikh. A Sikh follows Sikh way of life which one learns during Amrit Sanchaar. Second, it is completely your opinion that clean shaven people are “dirty”. Lastly, everyone will have equal opportunities in education and employment. Sikhs will not have any special rights or reservations. More the brains better it is.

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Would people from other religions be allowed to hold cabinet seats? Do not forget, we want to establish Khalistan.

This question cannot be answered clearly since the government has not been setup and we don’t know what kind of structure the government will hold. Panj Pyare will have the highest authority which will only be given to Sikhs who are eligible. Lower positions will be open to everyone. This is similar to USA government. Other requirements will also be in effect such as natural citizenship, education, experience etc. This is not determined yet but it will be once Khalistan becomes independent. Keep in mind that every country in the world set up its government and constitution after independence.

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Can you give us some examples of the laws which the citizens have to obey?

I am not a law maker. But reservation system will not be there. No caste system, no jizya etc. No particular group will have special rights. If any community does not agree with the law, it can be discussed in courts. Unlike in India, their voices will be heard and peaceful solutions will be sought rather than enforcing the law on minorities by attacking them with tanks and weapons.

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Can you please elaborate who the"long haired hindus" are and how does one become one?

According to Article 25 of Indian constitution, Sikhs are classes as Hindus. Sikh marriage is registered under Hindu Marriage.

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Names reflect everything that's why you insist on the name Khalistan not anyother and in the same breath you are ready to change the names of the towns our Gurus established.

I am talking about name of the country not cities. It has to be good and must have some meaning. But my question to you is: are you opposing Khalistan just because you don’t like the name? I am not insisting anything. I came to my own conclusion that Sikhs need a separate country. After two years I learned about Khalistan. Khalistan has not been established and Khalsa Panth has every right to change it not any individual.

I am still not convinced that this forum is a good place for one on one discussion. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Announcement: This topis has been moved to a new section called "One on One Debates" section. This section will only allow discussions with whom the topic starter would like to debate. Fellow members, ofcourse, can read the messages but will not be able to post in this section untill and unless the topic starter wishes to do so. You may have to request the topic starter to be able to participate in such debates. So, if you have some topic in mind that you would like to debate with any member, this is the right place to do. We hope this provide this satisfies some of the complaints mentioned above.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4623
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=4623


Official annoucement regarding this section follows soon...

Enjoy!!

This is a good step by the sevadars. I hope it goes well and serves the purpose.