Concept of Reincarnation

Navdeep ji

Where Sikhs stand on the issue of reincarnation is not a question that is easy to answer. There are some radically different points of view. I don't want to grandstand on that question. There are forum members who can give some very brilliant responses and they will come from every side of the question.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/new-to-sikhism/28918-concept-of-reincarnation.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28918

So let them speak away.

I do however want to say that one can believe in reincarnation, and yet still find the story told of Hemkunt to be difficult to believe. And I would go further and say that belief in reincarnation does not automatically lead a person to accept the mythology contained in Bachittar Natak.

I adhere to a belief in reincarnation, but do not believe one word in Bachittar Natak. And I am not alone.

 
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Taken from fools who wrangle over flesh.

Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:


ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o. ||1||
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. ||1||

mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa.
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa. ||2||
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||

saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.
Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.

jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan. ||3||
Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

jo kichh ho-aa so tujh tay hog.
Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.

avar na doojaa karnai jog.
No one else can do anything at all.

taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.
We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.

kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay. ||4||3||72||
Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||4||3||72||


Reading this Ang one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. In fact it states:

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;


If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:


sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:

go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.
The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?

muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar. ||1||
When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home. ||1||

har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.
O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.

ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Why do you take pride in trivial matters? ||1||Pause||

jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.
Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.

ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat. ||2||
Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden. ||2||

mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.
Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.

sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh. ||3||
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions. ||3||

lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.

naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay. ||4||22||92||
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near! ||4||22||92||




So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Ang although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,


khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2||
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

Randip Singh ji, perhaps, incarnating to rocks, soil, etc just means decomposition. That's not true reincarnation.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28918
Is there anything that would show that Guru Sahibs are talking about reincarnation, recycling of souls, and not simply physical recycling of chemicals that form life and non-life?

It is very likely that Guruji has used the concept of reincarnation as a metaphor to explain to the people the value of Human life. Whatever it may be, it absolutely clear that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that that human life is priceless and is a great opportunity to cleanse the soul through Simran and attain absolute purity so as to merge with the infinite Ek Onkar. Now if one is not able to achieve it in this life and requires another vehicle for it, then so be it!

It could be, but note also in physics, matter cannot be create or destroyed, it just changes form. This could be construed as reincarnation. If applied to your example that decomposed material will one day form to make a human.

Good point!

In so far as Bachittar Natak is concerned, it definitely is not a historic document. It is just a great piece of poetry and should just treated as such whoever might be its author. None of the great epics of the world have anything whatsoever to do with with reality but they do reflect and have helped to evolve great civilisations of the world.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28918
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28918
So lets just leave it at that. And moreover its unlikely that great works of art can be produced with a diabolical intent.

harbhansj ji

Why should we "leave it at that?" Why not diabolical intent? Diabolical forces were considered part of the dynamics of the natural world then and still are today in some religious systems. Why metaphor? The idea of a metaphor is to explain concepts by using images in order to get a deeper level of meaning. Are you certain that the author of Bachittar Natak did not expect to be taken very seriously, and in a literal way. What is the deeper level of meaning?

If one accepts the notion that the Bedi's and Sodhi's are descended from Luv and Kush, the one has to continue with the line of story-telling in Bachittar Natak that sex with a horse and the sacrificial offering of horses contributed to the fertility of the Bedi and Sodhi line?

Narayanjot ji,

I had used the word "metaphor" only to explain reincarnation as referred in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And I certainly cannot answer the questions raised by you regarding deeper meaning of Bachittar Natak.
But we must accept that even if we reject and dump Bachittar Natak, it will not just go away. Many Sikhs will continue to accept it and it will be considered as a great poetry whoever might have been its author.

harbhansj ji

The Sikh Missionary College in Ludhiana has written extensively that the Hindu imagery in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj should not be understood as "metaphors." Rather these are direct references, initially by Guru Nanak on his many travels, to people whom he observed conducting rituals to various Vedic gods and goddesses. When an entire Shabad is analyzed it is clear that he is addressing them directly and telling them that in spite of their worship and practice the only way to be liberated is through the Shabad Guru, attaching oneself to the Satguru. Later others of our Gurus adopted his images and continued his philosophy.

The idea that these various devta images are metaphors is wrong. For example,

Guru Nanak on Ang 1040/41 talks about the worship of Jagannatth, who is understood to be another name of narayan. his consort was Mahalaxmi. One line in the shabad seems to equate Jagannatth with The Lord of the universe, Akaal or Waheguru.

ਚੀਨਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਜਗਦੀਸਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥੧੩॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28918
cheenahu aap japahu jagadheesar har jagannaathh man bhaaeiaa ||13||
Know yourself, and meditate on the Lord of the Universe; let your mind be pleased with the Lord, the Master of the Universe. ||13||


But Guru Nanak was inspired to say these words when he was literally preaching in Orissa. Knowing this and reading the entire shabad, it is clear that Guru Nanak is really rejecting the worship of Jagannath and saying assimilate this devotion into to something higher -- the true Guru who emancipates.

The reference to Jagannath, or to Rama in earlier lines, are not metaphors for the true Guru.

The lines that follow.

ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਿ ਖੰਡਿ ਸੋ ਜਾਣਹੁ ॥
jo brehamandd khandd so jaanahu ||
Know the One who pervades all the realms of the universe.



ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝਹੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਣਹੁ ॥
guramukh boojhahu sabadh pashhaanahu ||
As Gurmukh, understand and realize the Shabad.



ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਭੋਗੇ ਭੋਗਣਹਾਰਾ ਰਹੈ ਅਤੀਤੁ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥੧੪॥
ghatt ghatt bhogae bhoganehaaraa rehai atheeth sabaaeiaa ||14||
The Enjoyer enjoys each and every heart, and yet He remains detached from all. ||14||



ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਬੋਲਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਸੂਚਾ ॥
guramath bolahu har jas soochaa ||
Through the Guru's Teachings, chant the Pure Praises of the Lord.



ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਆਖੀ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਊਚਾ ॥
guramath aakhee dhaekhahu oochaa ||
Through the Guru's Teachings, behold the lofty Lord with your eyes.

ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਣੈ ਹਰਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਰੰਗਾਇਆ ॥੧੫॥੩॥੨੦॥
sravanee naam sunai har baanee naanak har rang rangaaeiaa ||15||3||20||
Whoever listens to the Lord's Name, and the Word of His Bani, O Nanak, is imbued with the color of the Lord's Love. ||15||3||20||

This is an important ine because it stresses the core of Guru Nanak's message. Whoever does not accept the teachings of Shabad Guru, and does not dwell upon the Lords' Name, is bound and bagged, and dragged into the City of Death.

ਜਿਸੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸੋ ਜਮ ਪੁਰਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥੮॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28918
jis raam naam naahee math guramath so jam pur bandhh chalaaeiaa ||8||
Whoever does not accept the Guru's Teachings, and does not dwell upon the Lord's Name, is bound and bagged, and dragged into the City of Death. ||8||