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Dilemma for Westerners: A Second Look

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03-Aug-2009, 09:30 AM
Narayanjot Kaur's Avatar Narayanjot Kaur Narayanjot Kaur is offline
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Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

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OK then Huck Finn ji -- I would like to return to the thread's basic themes. The thread explores dilemmas encountered by "westerners" in particular one who was considering becoming adherents of Sikhism.

Aus Desi ji, With your indulgence -- You have made three very interesting observations about change. I want to turn them into questions that may continue discussion about dilemmas faced by "westerners."


Quote:
Originally Posted by AusDesi View Post
I think I agree with the view that its all in your mind. If you really have the will to achieve success then your religious beliefs should not matter.

Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way.

One of the ways you can tell its in the mind is when people from India move over to the states. Even if they don't have a turban they still feel something is holding them back. Some change their names. Some change their religions to fit in.

What is holding them back?

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey.

What needs to happen in that inner journey?

They feel that a turban or a name or a religion is just an accessory that is attached with them. Anyone who realises that these things make them who they are will never change them.

Do the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison?
Questions for anyone who is interested to consider.



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ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੂੰ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਕਰਤੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਵਣਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਣਿ ਰਤੜਾ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ ॥
jae ko moon oupadhaes karath hai thaa van thrin ratharraa naaraaeinaa ||
If someone is going to teach me something, let that be that the Lord is pervading the forests and fields.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 03-Aug-2009, 10:35 AM
Huck_Finn's Avatar Huck_Finn Huck_Finn is offline
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Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਭਲੀ ਸਰੀ ਜਿ ਉਬਰੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੁਈ ਘਰਾਹੁ ॥
भली सरी जि उबरी हउमै मुई घराहु ॥
Bẖalī sarī jė ubrī ha▫umai mu▫ī gẖarāhu.
It all worked out-I was saved, and the egotism within my heart was subdued.

ਦੂਤ ਲਗੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/new-to-sikhism/26118-dilemma-for-westerners-a-second-look.html
दूत लगे फिरि चाकरी सतिगुर का वेसाहु ॥
Ḏūṯ lage fir cẖākrī saṯgur kā vesāhu.
The evil energies have been made to serve me, since I placed my faith in the True Guru.

ਕਲਪ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਬਾਦਿ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
कलप तिआगी बादि है सचा वेपरवाहु ॥१॥
Kalap ṯi▫āgī bāḏ hai sacẖā veparvāhu. ||1||
I have renounced my useless schemes, by the Grace of the True, Carefree Lord. ||1||

ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਭਉ ਜਾਇ ॥
मन रे सचु मिलै भउ जाइ ॥
Man re sacẖ milai bẖa▫o jā▫e.
O mind, meeting with the True One, fear departs.

ਭੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਕਿਉ ਥੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
भै बिनु निरभउ किउ थीऐ गुरमुखि सबदि समाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Bẖai bin nirbẖa▫o ki▫o thī▫ai gurmukẖ sabaḏ samā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Without the Fear of God, how can anyone become fearless? Become Gurmukh, and immerse yourself in the Shabad. ||1||Pause||

ਕੇਤਾ ਆਖਣੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਖਣਿ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
केता आखणु आखीऐ आखणि तोटि न होइ ॥
Keṯā ākẖaṇ ākẖī▫ai ākẖaṇ ṯot na ho▫e.
How can we describe Him with words? There is no end to the descriptions of Him.

ਮੰਗਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਕੇਤੜੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਇ ॥
मंगण वाले केतड़े दाता एको सोइ ॥
Mangaṇ vāle keṯ▫ṛe ḏāṯā eko so▫e.
There are so many beggars, but He is the only Giver.

ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਜੀਅ ਪਰਾਣ ਹੈ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118
जिस के जीअ पराण है मनि वसिऐ सुखु होइ ॥२॥
Jis ke jī▫a parāṇ hai man vasi▫ai sukẖ ho▫e. ||2||
He is the Giver of the soul, and the praanaa, the breath of life; when He dwells within the mind, there is peace. ||2||

ਜਗੁ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਬਾਜੀ ਬਨੀ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਾਇ ॥
जगु सुपना बाजी बनी खिन महि खेलु खेलाइ ॥
Jag supnā bājī banī kẖin mėh kẖel kẖelā▫e.
The world is a drama, staged in a dream. In a moment, the play is played out.

ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕਸੇ ਵਿਜੋਗੀ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
संजोगी मिलि एकसे विजोगी उठि जाइ ॥
Sanjogī mil ekse vijogī uṯẖ jā▫e.
Some attain union with the Lord, while others depart in separation.

ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੩॥
जो तिसु भाणा सो थीऐ अवरु न करणा जाइ ॥३॥
Jo ṯis bẖāṇā so thī▫ai avar na karṇā jā▫e. ||3||
Whatever pleases Him comes to pass; nothing else can be done. ||3||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੀਐ ਸਚੁ ਵਖਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਰਾਸਿ ॥
गुरमुखि वसतु वेसाहीऐ सचु वखरु सचु रासि ॥
Gurmukẖ vasaṯ vesāhī▫ai sacẖ vakẖar sacẖ rās.
The Gurmukhs purchase the Genuine Article. The True Merchandise is purchased with the True Capital.

ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੁ ਵਣੰਜਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥
जिनी सचु वणंजिआ गुर पूरे साबासि ॥
Jinī sacẖ vaṇaṇji▫ā gur pūre sābās.
Those who purchase this True Merchandise through the Perfect Guru are blessed.

ਨਾਨਕ ਵਸਤੁ ਪਛਾਣਸੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਉਦਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੪॥੧੧॥
नानक वसतु पछाणसी सचु सउदा जिसु पासि ॥४॥११॥
Nānak vasaṯ pacẖẖāṇsī sacẖ sa▫uḏā jis pās. ||4||11||
O Nanak, one who stocks this True Merchandise shall recognize and realize the Genuine Article. ||4||11||
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-Aug-2009, 10:37 AM
Narayanjot Kaur's Avatar Narayanjot Kaur Narayanjot Kaur is offline
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Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

Again returning to the thread topic,

....The thread (started by Harbhanj24 ji) explores dilemmas encountered by "westerners" in particular one who was considering becoming adherents of Sikhism.


Aus Desi ji, With your indulgence -- You have made three very interesting observations about change. I want to turn them into questions that may continue discussion about dilemmas faced by "westerners."

================================================== ==============================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by AusDesi
I think I agree with the view that its all in your mind. If you really have the will to achieve success then your religious beliefs should not matter.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118

Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way.

One of the ways you can tell its in the mind is when people from India move over to the states. Even if they don't have a turban they still feel something is holding them back. Some change their names. Some change their religions to fit in.

What is holding them back?

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118

What needs to happen in that inner journey?

They feel that a turban or a name or a religion is just an accessory that is attached with them. Anyone who realises that these things make them who they are will never change them.

Do the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison?

================================================== ===============================================
Questions for anyone who is interested to consider.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-Aug-2009, 10:41 AM
Huck_Finn's Avatar Huck_Finn Huck_Finn is offline
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Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

<>

Guru ji state in the shabd below,

it's the inner change that matters, not outer.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਦੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਮੁਠੀ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
ध्रिगु जीवणु दोहागणी मुठी दूजै भाइ ॥
Ḏẖarig jīvaṇ ḏuhāgaṇī muṯẖī ḏūjai bẖā▫e.
The life of the discarded bride is cursed. She is deceived by the love of duality.

ਕਲਰ ਕੇਰੀ ਕੰਧ ਜਿਉ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਕਿਰਿ ਢਹਿ ਪਾਇ ॥
कलर केरी कंध जिउ अहिनिसि किरि ढहि पाइ ॥
Kalar kerī kanḏẖ ji▫o ahinis kir dẖėh pā▫e.
Like a wall of sand, day and night, she crumbles, and eventually, she breaks down altogether.

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨਾ ਥੀਐ ਪਿਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
बिनु सबदै सुखु ना थीऐ पिर बिनु दूखु न जाइ ॥१॥
Bin sabḏai sukẖ nā thī▫ai pir bin ḏūkẖ na jā▫e. ||1||
Without the Word of the Shabad, peace does not come. Without her Husband Lord, her suffering does not end. ||1||

ਮੁੰਧੇ ਪਿਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਆ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ॥
मुंधे पिर बिनु किआ सीगारु ॥
Munḏẖe pir bin ki▫ā sīgār.
O soul-bride, without your Husband Lord, what good are your decorations?


ਦਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਢੋਈ ਨ ਲਹੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਝੂਠੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
दरि घरि ढोई न लहै दरगह झूठु खुआरु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ḏar gẖar dẖo▫ī na lahai ḏargėh jẖūṯẖ kẖu▫ār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
In this world, you shall not find any shelter; in the world hereafter, being false, you shall suffer. ||1||Pause||

ਆਪਿ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਭੁਲਈ ਸਚਾ ਵਡ ਕਿਰਸਾਣੁ ॥
आपि सुजाणु न भुलई सचा वड किरसाणु ॥
Āp sujāṇ na bẖul▫ī sacẖā vad kirsāṇ.
The True Lord Himself knows all; He makes no mistakes. He is the Great Farmer of the Universe.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਸਾਧਿ ਕੈ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇ ਦਾਣੁ ॥
पहिला धरती साधि कै सचु नामु दे दाणु ॥
Pahilā ḏẖarṯī sāḏẖ kai sacẖ nām ḏe ḏāṇ.
First, He prepares the ground, and then He plants the Seed of the True Name.

ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਕਰਮਿ ਪਵੈ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥੨॥
नउ निधि उपजै नामु एकु करमि पवै नीसाणु ॥२॥
Na▫o niḏẖ upjai nām ek karam pavai nīsāṇ. ||2||
The nine treasures are produced from Name of the One Lord. By His Grace, we obtain His Banner and Insignia. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਜਾਣਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ ਕਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਚਜੁ ਅਚਾਰੁ ॥
गुर कउ जाणि न जाणई किआ तिसु चजु अचारु ॥
Gur ka▫o jāṇ na jāṇ▫ī ki▫ā ṯis cẖaj acẖār.
Some are very knowledgeable, but if they do not know the Guru, then what is the use of their lives?

ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118
अंधुलै नामु विसारिआ मनमुखि अंध गुबारु ॥
Anḏẖulai nām visāri▫ā manmukẖ anḏẖ gubār.
The blind have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness.

ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੩॥
आवणु जाणु न चुकई मरि जनमै होइ खुआरु ॥३॥
Āvaṇ jāṇ na cẖuk▫ī mar janmai ho▫e kẖu▫ār. ||3||
Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end; through death and rebirth, they are wasting away. ||3||

ਚੰਦਨੁ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਣਾਇਆ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਮਾਂਗ ਸੰਧੂਰੁ ॥
चंदनु मोलि अणाइआ कुंगू मांग संधूरु ॥
Cẖanḏan mol aṇā▫i▫ā kungū māʼng sanḏẖūr.
The bride may buy sandalwood oil and perfumes, and apply them in great quantities to her hair;

ਚੋਆ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਬਹੁ ਘਣਾ ਪਾਨਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਕਪੂਰੁ ॥
चोआ चंदनु बहु घणा पाना नालि कपूरु ॥
Cẖo▫ā cẖanḏan baho gẖaṇā pānā nāl kapūr.
she may sweeten her breath with betel leaf and camphor,

ਜੇ ਧਨ ਕੰਤਿ ਨ ਭਾਵਈ ਤ ਸਭਿ ਅਡੰਬਰ ਕੂੜੁ ॥੪॥
जे धन कंति न भावई त सभि अड्मबर कूड़ु ॥४॥
Je ḏẖan kanṯ na bẖāv▫ī ṯa sabẖ adambar kūṛ. ||4||
but if this bride is not pleasing to her Husband Lord, then all these trappings are false. ||4||

ਸਭਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣ ਬਾਦਿ ਹਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
सभि रस भोगण बादि हहि सभि सीगार विकार ॥
Sabẖ ras bẖogaṇ bāḏ hėh sabẖ sīgār vikār.
Her enjoyment of all pleasures is futile, and all her decorations are corrupt.

ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਭੇਦੀਐ ਕਿਉ ਸੋਹੈ ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
जब लगु सबदि न भेदीऐ किउ सोहै गुरदुआरि ॥
Jab lag sabaḏ na bẖeḏī▫ai ki▫o sohai gurḏu▫ār.
Until she has been pierced through with the Shabad, how can she look beautiful at Guru's Gate?

ਨਾਨਕ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਸਹ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥੫॥੧੩॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118
नानक धंनु सुहागणी जिन सह नालि पिआरु ॥५॥१३॥
Nānak ḏẖan suhāgaṇī jin sah nāl pi▫ār. ||5||13||
O Nanak, blessed is that fortunate bride, who is in love with her Husband Lord. ||5||13||
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-Aug-2009, 11:00 AM
Huck_Finn's Avatar Huck_Finn Huck_Finn is offline
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Re: Dilemma for Westerners?



Guru ji say


ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲੁ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महलु १ ॥
Sirīrāg mahal 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਜਾਲਿ ਮੋਹੁ ਘਸਿ ਮਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਤਿ ਕਾਗਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
जालि मोहु घसि मसु करि मति कागदु करि सारु ॥
Jāl moh gẖas mas kar maṯ kāgaḏ kar sār.
Burn emotional attachment, and grind it into ink. Transform your intelligence into the purest of paper.

ਭਾਉ ਕਲਮ ਕਰਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲੇਖਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਪੁਛਿ ਲਿਖੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
भाउ कलम करि चितु लेखारी गुर पुछि लिखु बीचारु ॥
Bẖā▫o kalam kar cẖiṯ lekẖārī gur pucẖẖ likẖ bīcẖār.
Make the love of the Lord your pen, and let your consciousness be the scribe. Then, seek the Guru's Instructions, and record these deliberations.

ਲਿਖੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਲਿਖੁ ਲਿਖੁ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
लिखु नामु सालाह लिखु लिखु अंतु न पारावारु ॥१॥
Likẖ nām sālāh likẖ likẖ anṯ na pārāvār. ||1||
Write the Praises of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; write over and over again that He has no end or limitation. ||1||

ਬਾਬਾ ਏਹੁ ਲੇਖਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣੁ ॥
बाबा एहु लेखा लिखि जाणु ॥
Bābā ehu lekẖā likẖ jāṇ.
O Baba, write such an account,

ਜਿਥੈ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਹੋਇ ਸਚਾ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118
जिथै लेखा मंगीऐ तिथै होइ सचा नीसाणु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jithai lekẖā mangī▫ai ṯithai ho▫e sacẖā nīsāṇ. ||1|| rahā▫o.
that when it is asked for, it will bring the Mark of Truth. ||1||Pause||

ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਲਹਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਸਦ ਖੁਸੀਆ ਸਦ ਚਾਉ ॥
जिथै मिलहि वडिआईआ सद खुसीआ सद चाउ ॥
Jithai milėh vaḏi▫ā▫ī▫ā saḏ kẖusī▫ā saḏ cẖā▫o.
There, where greatness, eternal peace and everlasting joy are bestowed,

ਤਿਨ ਮੁਖਿ ਟਿਕੇ ਨਿਕਲਹਿ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
तिन मुखि टिके निकलहि जिन मनि सचा नाउ ॥
Ŧin mukẖ tike niklahi jin man sacẖā nā▫o.
the faces of those whose minds are attuned to the True Name are anointed with the Mark of Grace.

ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਗਲੀ ਵਾਉ ਦੁਆਉ ॥੨॥
करमि मिलै ता पाईऐ नाही गली वाउ दुआउ ॥२॥
Karam milai ṯā pā▫ī▫ai nāhī galī vā▫o ḏu▫ā▫o. ||2||
If one receives God's Grace, then such honors are received, and not by mere words. ||2||

ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਉਠਿ ਰਖੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਵ ਸਲਾਰ ॥
इकि आवहि इकि जाहि उठि रखीअहि नाव सलार ॥
Ik āvahi ik jāhi uṯẖ rakẖī▫ahi nāv salār.
Some come, and some arise and depart. They give themselves lofty names.

ਇਕਿ ਉਪਾਏ ਮੰਗਤੇ ਇਕਨਾ ਵਡੇ ਦਰਵਾਰ ॥
इकि उपाए मंगते इकना वडे दरवार ॥
Ik upā▫e mangṯe iknā vade ḏarvār.
Some are born beggars, and some hold vast courts.

ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਵੇਕਾਰ ॥੩॥
अगै गइआ जाणीऐ विणु नावै वेकार ॥३॥
Agai ga▫i▫ā jāṇī▫ai viṇ nāvai vekār. ||3||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118
Going to the world hereafter, everyone shall realize that without the Name, it is all useless. ||3||

ਭੈ ਤੇਰੈ ਡਰੁ ਅਗਲਾ ਖਪਿ ਖਪਿ ਛਿਜੈ ਦੇਹ ॥
भै तेरै डरु अगला खपि खपि छिजै देह ॥
Bẖai ṯerai dar aglā kẖap kẖap cẖẖijai ḏeh.
I am terrified by the Fear of You, God. Bothered and bewildered, my body is wasting away.

ਨਾਵ ਜਿਨਾ ਸੁਲਤਾਨ ਖਾਨ ਹੋਦੇ ਡਿਠੇ ਖੇਹ ॥
नाव जिना सुलतान खान होदे डिठे खेह ॥
Nāv jinā sulṯān kẖān hoḏe diṯẖe kẖeh.
Those who are known as sultans and emperors shall be reduced to dust in the end.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਿਆ ਸਭਿ ਕੂੜੇ ਤੁਟੇ ਨੇਹ ॥੪॥੬॥
नानक उठी चलिआ सभि कूड़े तुटे नेह ॥४॥६॥
Nānak uṯẖī cẖali▫ā sabẖ kūṛe ṯute neh. ||4||6||
O Nanak, arising and departing, all false attachments are cut away. ||4||6||
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-Aug-2009, 11:08 AM
Huck_Finn's Avatar Huck_Finn Huck_Finn is offline
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Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

continuing the previous post

what does the journey involve:

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
आसा महला ५ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

ਤੀਰਥਿ ਜਾਉ ਤ ਹਉ ਹਉ ਕਰਤੇ ॥
तीरथि जाउ त हउ हउ करते ॥
Ŧirath jā▫o ṯa ha▫o ha▫o karṯe.
Journeying to sacred shrines of pilgrimage, I see the mortals acting in ego.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੂਛਉ ਤ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਾਤੇ ॥੧॥
पंडित पूछउ त माइआ राते ॥१॥
Pandiṯ pūcẖẖa▫o ṯa mā▫i▫ā rāṯe. ||1||
If I ask the Pandits, I find them tainted by Maya. ||1||

ਸੋ ਅਸਥਾਨੁ ਬਤਾਵਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥
सो असथानु बतावहु मीता ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118
So asthān baṯāvhu mīṯā.
Show me that place, O friend,

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਨੀਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जा कै हरि हरि कीरतनु नीता ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jā kai har har kīrṯan nīṯā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
where the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises are forever sung. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥
सासत्र बेद पाप पुंन वीचार ॥
Sāsṯar beḏ pāp punn vīcẖār.
The Shaastras and the Vedas speak of sin and virtue;

ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਅਉਤਾਰ ॥੨॥
नरकि सुरगि फिरि फिरि अउतार ॥२॥
Narak surag fir fir a▫uṯār. ||2||
they say that mortals are reincarnated into heaven and hell, over and over again. ||2||

ਗਿਰਸਤ ਮਹਿ ਚਿੰਤ ਉਦਾਸ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ॥
गिरसत महि चिंत उदास अहंकार ॥
Girsaṯ mėh cẖinṯ uḏās ahaʼnkār.
In the householder's life, there is anxiety, and in the life of the renunciate, there is egotism.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਜੀਅ ਕਉ ਜੰਜਾਰ ॥੩॥
करम करत जीअ कउ जंजार ॥३॥
Karam karaṯ jī▫a ka▫o janjār. ||3||
Performing religious rituals, the soul is entangled. ||3||

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਵਸਿ ਆਇਆ ॥
प्रभ किरपा ते मनु वसि आइआ ॥
Parabẖ kirpā ṯe man vas ā▫i▫ā.
By God's Grace, the mind is brought under control;

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਰੀ ਤਿਨਿ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੪॥
नानक गुरमुखि तरी तिनि माइआ ॥४॥
Nānak gurmukẖ ṯarī ṯin mā▫i▫ā. ||4||
O Nanak, the Gurmukh crosses over the ocean of Maya. ||4||

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਈਐ ॥
साधसंगि हरि कीरतनु गाईऐ ॥
Sāḏẖsang har kīrṯan gā▫ī▫ai.
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises.

ਇਹੁ ਅਸਥਾਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੭॥੫੮॥
इहु असथानु गुरू ते पाईऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ दूजा ॥७॥५८॥
Ih asthān gurū ṯe pā▫ī▫ai. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||7||58||
This place is found through the Guru. ||1||Second. Pause||7||58||
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 03-Aug-2009, 11:12 AM
Huck_Finn's Avatar Huck_Finn Huck_Finn is offline
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Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

and once you start


ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
गउड़ी महला १ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1.
Gauree, First Mehl:

ਪਉਣੈ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
पउणै पाणी अगनी का मेलु ॥
Pa▫uṇai pāṇī agnī kā mel.
The union of air, water and fire -

ਚੰਚਲ ਚਪਲ ਬੁਧਿ ਕਾ ਖੇਲੁ ॥
चंचल चपल बुधि का खेलु ॥
Cẖancẖal cẖapal buḏẖ kā kẖel.
the body is the play-thing of the fickle and unsteady intellect.

ਨਉ ਦਰਵਾਜੇ ਦਸਵਾ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
नउ दरवाजे दसवा दुआरु ॥
Na▫o ḏarvāje ḏasvā ḏu▫ār.
It has nine doors, and then there is the Tenth Gate.

ਬੁਝੁ ਰੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਏਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
बुझु रे गिआनी एहु बीचारु ॥१॥
Bujẖ re gi▫ānī ehu bīcẖār. ||1||
Reflect upon this and understand it, O wise one. ||1||

ਕਥਤਾ ਬਕਤਾ ਸੁਨਤਾ ਸੋਈ ॥
कथता बकता सुनता सोई ॥
Kathṯā bakṯā sunṯā so▫ī.
The Lord is the One who speaks, teaches and listens.

ਆਪੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
आपु बीचारे सु गिआनी होई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Āp bīcẖāre so gi▫ānī ho▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
One who contemplates his own self is truly wise. ||1||Pause||

ਦੇਹੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਬੋਲੈ ਪਉਣੁ ॥
देही माटी बोलै पउणु ॥
Ḏehī mātī bolai pa▫uṇ.
The body is dust; the wind speaks through it.

ਬੁਝੁ ਰੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਮੂਆ ਹੈ ਕਉਣੁ ॥
बुझु रे गिआनी मूआ है कउणु ॥
Bujẖ re gi▫ānī mū▫ā hai ka▫uṇ.
Understand, O wise one, who has died.

ਮੂਈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
मूई सुरति बादु अहंकारु ॥
Mū▫ī suraṯ bāḏ ahaʼnkār.
Awareness, conflict and ego have died,

ਓਹੁ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਜੋ ਦੇਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ओहु न मूआ जो देखणहारु ॥२॥
Oh na mū▫ā jo ḏekẖaṇhār. ||2||
but the One who sees does not die. ||2||

ਜੈ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਤਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜਾਹੀ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118
जै कारणि तटि तीरथ जाही ॥
Jai kāraṇ ṯat ṯirath jāhī.
For the sake of it, you journey to sacred shrines and holy rivers;

ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਮਾਹੀ ॥
रतन पदारथ घट ही माही ॥
Raṯan paḏārath gẖat hī māhī.
but this priceless jewel is within your own heart.

ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬਾਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥
पड़ि पड़ि पंडितु बादु वखाणै ॥
Paṛ paṛ pandiṯ bāḏ vakẖāṇai.
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read and read endlessly; they stir up arguments and controversies,

ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹੋਦੀ ਵਸਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥੩॥
भीतरि होदी वसतु न जाणै ॥३॥
Bẖīṯar hoḏī vasaṯ na jāṇai. ||3||
but they do not know the secret deep within. ||3||

ਹਉ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਮੁਈ ਬਲਾਇ ॥
हउ न मूआ मेरी मुई बलाइ ॥
Ha▫o na mū▫ā merī mu▫ī balā▫e.
I have not died - that evil nature within me has died.

ਓਹੁ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਜੋ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
ओहु न मूआ जो रहिआ समाइ ॥
Oh na mū▫ā jo rahi▫ā samā▫e.
The One who is pervading everywhere does not die.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥
कहु नानक गुरि ब्रहमु दिखाइआ ॥
Kaho Nānak gur barahm ḏikẖā▫i▫ā.
Says Nanak, the Guru has revealed God to me,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118

ਮਰਤਾ ਜਾਤਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੪॥੪॥
मरता जाता नदरि न आइआ ॥४॥४॥
Marṯā jāṯā naḏar na ā▫i▫ā. ||4||4||
and now I see that there is no such thing as birth or death. ||4||4||
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 03-Aug-2009, 19:02 PM
AusDesi's Avatar AusDesi AusDesi is offline
 
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Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

I'll try to answer some of the questions.


Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way.

Now I could take the easy way out here and say yes religious people are stronger. However, knowing a fair few Atheists I think I disagree. They are just as strong as religious people because they have nothing to turn to.

However, it could be claimed that Atheism itself is a belief. So I guess beliefs make us stronger to tackle obstacles.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118

What is holding them back?
Well its not an actual thing. its their feeling. Immigrants usually feel that they are not getting the same opportunities. Then that leads to a conclusion as to why they are not getting the same opportunities.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118

Someone might say its because of the turban. Someone might say its their language skills. Someone might say its their name.

However, there could be legitimate racism like Apartheid or 'Irish need not apply' but its quite rare in western countries these days.

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey.

What needs to happen in that inner journey?

An inner journey is basically a way of us to understand ourselves. Most people will change during an inner journey. Changing of beliefs usually happen whether they are religious, ideological or moral.

There are many films on this subject. Ali, American History X.

One of the best films on inner change/journey i've seen is Rang De Basanti. How a group of modern youth change seeing the sacrifice and beliefs of an older generation.

Do the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison?
I am not sure what that question is alluding to. What outward signs supposed to mean.
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Old 03-Aug-2009, 23:14 PM
Tejwant Singh's Avatar Tejwant Singh Tejwant Singh is offline
 
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Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

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Huck_Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for posting the Shabads. I admire your copy and paste skills. But, unfortunately your copied and pasted stuff is literal translation, not interpretation with your own thoughts. The fact is that you have posted the copied and pasted Shabads so you must have something in your mind that you are trying to convey. I would like you to interpret each Shabad in your own words in your own unique way( you did mention that you have a unique way of expressing yourself ), so we can all learn how these Shabads have influenced you in your journey and how you are affected by them.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26118

As you may also be very well aware that most of the literal translations are incorrect and at times misleading, hence they will not be able to express what you true thought process is about them. Sikhi is all about sharing and thanks for doing that. I do appreciate it.

Hope to hear from you.

Tejwant Singh
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