Dilemma for Westerners?

Tejwant Singh · #19 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2009, 08:30 AM

Huck_Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huck_Finn

We all wash our faces at the end of the day, remove the make up and then look at the mirror.

That's what we are

rest all is an attempt to fit in.

Make up means hiding one's flaws. Hence the word make up. So,please share with us what kind of make up do you use and why and what do you find when you have removed your make up and look at the mirror? Does it make you not to use it the next day so you can find some true ways to get rid of the flaws?

Secondly, fit in where and how and why?

I would like to have your perspective and your thoughts on it if you do not mind.

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh

Huck_Finn · #20 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2009, 08:38 AM

Tejwant ji

not all make up is for flaws.

I work as an artist, i make up to play roles, characters...it is a part of my task.

make up is also the exterior we assume to be one among the many. many here is subjective. I would be motivated by an internal desire to be a part of even small many. e.g the gothic culture.

fit in

we fitting in goes both ways.

all institutions are based on assumptions that a limited number is true and there is more false than truth.

So being a part of institution is the process of fitting in.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/new-to-sikhism/26086-dilemma-for-westerners.html

Why be a part of institution?

i have no answer to that

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26086

my way of dialog is wee bit odd, hope you are comfortable with this.

Tejwant Singh · #21 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2009, 09:07 AM

Huck_ Finn ji,

Thanks for the response.

You write:

Quote:

not all make up is for flaws.I work as an artist, i make up to play roles, characters...it is a part of my task.

Make up means to make up for something that is missing. You make up as an artist to play a certain role because your actual face is not able to do that. So, in other words you hide your true self which is flawed for the role you want to play.

Quote:

make up is also the exterior we assume to be one among the many. many here is subjective. I would be motivated by an internal desire to be a part of even small many. e.g the gothic culture.

Gothic culture requires one to dress, and make up so one can fit in, for example using black clothes, black nail polish and make up etc. One can not use blue or pink to look like a Gothic. There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I have 4 boys who owrk for me and belong to the Gothic culture with chains and boots in the hot summer of the desert. But this is nothing to do with our interaction.

Quote:

fit in

we fitting in goes both ways.

What made you fit in the Gothic culture? or What attracted you to it and what kind of acceptance you are looking for by dressing up as a Gothic?

What do your parents think of it? I have no idea how old you are but is it a kind of rebellion against their value system without understanding why they have those values?

Forgive me if I am assuming too much.

Quote:

all institutions are based on assumptions that a limited number is true and there is more false than truth.

So being a part of institution is the process of fitting in.

Do you consider the institution you are part of a false one? If yes, then in what way? If it is a false one then why this desire to fit in a false institution?

Quote:

Why be a part of institution?

i have no answer to that

Well, if one knows it is a false institution then one must have the answer or the reason why one wants to be a part of something false, fake and sometime make believe hence not true.

This seems to contradict your statement in the other thread in which you said:true path and the markers are constant.

Quote:

my way of dialog is wee bit odd, hope you are comfortable with this.

This is your own presumption, not mine.

Tejwant Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #22 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2009, 09:12 AM

Huck Finn ji

I do hope you will answer Tejwant ji's quesitons with more specificity. You ask "Why be part of an institution? That is a fair question in another context.
If the discussion were "Why Choose Religion?" or why be a member of any organized religion, then I think your question invites a reasonable response. Of course I am assuming that religion is a formal institution in making my remarks.

Are you saying that being part of an institution is a waste of time and energy? How are you defining "institution?"
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26086

But should anyone have to justify the decision to convert or continue to be an adherent of any formal religion? Why should someone have to do that just because someone else feels that being part of an institution is a waste of time? I don't know if you do see formal religion in that way.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26086

Beyond that observation --- the thread is about the dilemmas faced by westerners who are considering converting to Sikhism. How does asking "Why be part of an institution?" address the original concern.

Huck_Finn · #23 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2009, 09:17 AM

tejwant ji

there is a saying in punjabi

baal di khall udherni and you have made quite a tangle out of it.

let's go one qn at a time again

<>

no

make up is to display what "others" want to see. This has nothing do do with flaws or beauty or whatever you might be presuming.

<>

i am not sure that why this is not relevant to discussion?

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26086
why do anyone trying to be gothic needs to have black nails etc...??

try extending that to our discussion.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26086

<
What do your parents think of it? I have no idea how old you are but is it a kind of rebellion against their value system without understanding why they have those values?

Forgive me if I am assuming too much.>>

yes sir, you assumed quite a bit

I am nowhere near to Gothic culture, in act its the antithesis of what my opinion is.

and why does following own path gets labeled as rebellion?

<>

all institutions that propose to be the bridge between Akal and me are false for me.

but there are other institutions that i cherish -my country, my professional associations. They help me achieve my worldly objectives.

<
This seems to contradict your statement in the other thread in which you said:true path and the markers are constant.>>>

well, you would have understood by now what i meant by Baal di khall udherni.

Huck_Finn · #24 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2009, 09:21 AM

<>

ji

i absolutely agree that by denouncing religion, i am actually building another institution

and i agree, everyone makes personal choices.

I amply made it clear that am not make a stand of superiority. Just my opinions.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26086

<>

it absolutely is

the convert needs to ask himself/herself

whether they are going to follow Sikhi or be a part of the institution that Sikhism is ?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26086

well, even those born in families who live in the institution need to introspect.

Huck_Finn · #25 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2009, 09:22 AM

<>
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26086

i could write an essay

later for sure

Narayanjot Kaur · #26 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2009, 09:30 AM

OK then Huck Finn ji -- I would like to return to the thread's basic themes. The thread explores dilemmas encountered by "westerners" in particular one who was considering becoming adherents of Sikhism.

Aus Desi ji, With your indulgence -- You have made three very interesting observations about change. I want to turn them into questions that may continue discussion about dilemmas faced by "westerners."

Quote:

Originally Posted by AusDesi

I think I agree with the view that its all in your mind. If you really have the will to achieve success then your religious beliefs should not matter.

Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way.

One of the ways you can tell its in the mind is when people from India move over to the states. Even if they don't have a turban they still feel something is holding them back. Some change their names. Some change their religions to fit in.

What is holding them back?

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey.

What needs to happen in that inner journey?

They feel that a turban or a name or a religion is just an accessory that is attached with them. Anyone who realises that these things make them who they are will never change them.

Do the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison?

Questions for anyone who is interested to consider.

Tejwant Singh · #27 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2009, 09:55 AM

Huck_Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

You seem offended and become a bit edgy it seems when the questions are asked based on your own statements so one can understand what you are trying to say.

Let us go through them one by one, if you do not mind the indulgence.

Quote:

there is a saying in punjabi

baal di khall udherni and you have made quite a tangle out of it.

Again that is your own presumption. It shows you are irritated when asked about what you said. I thought you wanted to be taken seriously.

My quote:
<>

Your response:

Quote:

no

make up is to display what "others" want to see. This has nothing do do with flaws or beauty or whatever you might be presuming.

How do you know what others want to see that? What makes you so sure or cocky about other people's desires and needs? Secondly, please read again what I said. I will repeat it here. You claim that you use make up to role play another character that you are not, which naturally means that your own face is flawed to play that role, hence you are forced to use make up.

My quote:
<>

Your response:

Quote:

I am nowhere near to Gothic culture, in act its the antithesis of what my opinion is.

Well, this is what you said which seems to contradict your above statement. If Gothic culture is the antithesis is what your opinion is then what is the reason using the Gothic culture as an example? You shared your internal desire in the following and then contradicted yourself. The reasons only know to you and I hope you would share them with us.

Quote:

I would be motivated by an internal desire to be a part of even small many. e.g the gothic culture.

My quote:
<>

Your response:

Quote:

and why does following own path gets labeled as rebellion?

I do not think you noticed that it is a YES or NO question. There is nothing why or but about it. Honesty and sincerity are important in any sort of interaction if one wants to be taken seriously.

My quote:

<>

Quote:

all institutions that propose to be the bridge between Akal and me are false for me.

Once again you have shown as a habit of dodging the questions which are based on your own statements. One wonders why!

Quote:

but there are other institutions that i cherish -my country, my professional associations. They help me achieve my worldly objectives.

So, you like to be part of an institution? Thanks for admitting that after denying it repeatedly.

What kind of institution is your country? Does everyone in your country adhere to the same rules to be part of the institution?

My quote:
<
This seems to contradict your statement in the other thread in which you said:true path
and the markers are constant.>>>

Your response which is nothing but a repetition:

Quote:

well, you would have understood by now what i meant by Baal di khall udherni.

I would call this nothing but a cop out and shows timidity from someone who wants to be taken seriously.

If you do not have the courage to respond to your own statements then the statements themselves become futile and irrelevant.

Tejwant Singh