I still can't find peace on this meat v.s. vegetarian issue

Dear Satyadhi Ji,
I hope the following might help in your search for Sikh thought on Meat as I understand;



Whether to consume any kind of meat should be a matter of personal preference on the basis of taste etc. It is foolhardy to bring religion into this issue. Guru Nanak has explained it very well: Only God knows what is good and what is bad. Meat has been eaten in all the four ages and has been referred in all religious books. Guru Angad in Raag Ramkali ponders on the life in ocean;

ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਆਹਾਰੁ ਜੀਅ ਖਾਣਾ ਏਹੁ ਕਰੇਇ ॥

Jī▫ā kā āhār jī▫a kẖāṇā ehu kare▫i.

Animals eat other animals; this is what the Akal Purkh has given them as food.
-----Guru Angad, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 955-11
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Water is the source of every thing in creation whether vegetation or meat. It quenches thirst and cleanses the body but not consciousness says Guru Nanak in Raag Sarang;

ਪਾਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਨ ਧੋਪਈ ਮੁਖਿ ਪੀਤੈ ਤਿਖ ਜਾਇ ॥ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਸਭੁ ਖਾਇ ॥

paanee chit na Dhop-ee mukh peetai tikh jaa-ay, Paanee Pitaa Jagat Kaa Fir Paanee Sabh Khaa-ay.

The consciousness is not washed with water. You drink it to quench your thirst. Water is the father of the world. In the end water destroys it all.
-----Guru Nanak Dev, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1240-9
The goodness of food or clothes depends on the purity of heart, as explained by Guru Nanak in Raag Majh and Siri Raag;

ਕਿਆ ਖਾਧੈ ਕਿਆ ਪੈਧੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ਜਾ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥ਕਿਆ ਮੇਵਾ ਕਿਆ ਘਿਉ ਗੁੜੁ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੈਦਾ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਸੁ ॥

Ki-aa KhaaDhai Ki-aa PaiDhai Ho-ay, Jaa Man Naahee Sachaa So-ay,Kiaa Mayvaa Kiaa Gheo Gurh Mithaa Kiaa Maidaa Kiaa Maas.

What good is consuming delicacies and wearing fine clothes, if the True Akal Purkh does not abide within the mind? What good are fruits, butter, sugar, sweets, flour and meat?
-----Guru Nanak, Vaar Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 142-12
Sabd Guru categorically forbids mind altering substances that have immoral consequences as indicated by Guru Nanak in Siri Raag;

ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
Baabaa Hor Khaanaa Khusee Khu-aar, Jit Khadhai Tan Peerhai Man Meh Chaleh Vikaar.

O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind.
-----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 16-14

Sikh thought is more concerned with the ethical side of the life rather than physical or material things or Maya. Food of any type makes little difference. What is important is the spiritual part of remembering God, since it enhances spiritual growth. Those not remembering God are heading toward delusion, as described by Guru Nanak in Raag Majh:

ਇਕਿ ਮਾਸਹਾਰੀ ਇਕਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਣੁ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਇਕਨਾ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ਇਕਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਮਹਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਮੁਠੇ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥ Ik Masaharee Ik TriN Khaaeh, Ikna Chateeh Amnrit Paaeh, Ik MiTee-aa Meh MiTee-aa Khaaeh, Nanak Muthay Jaahi Naahee Man So-ay.

Some eat meat, while others eat grass. Some have all the thirty-six varieties of delicacies, while others live in the dirt and eat mud. O Nanak, those who do not enshrine the Akal Purkh within their minds is deluded. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 144

Here is another Sloke of Mardana in Raag Bihaagrha stressing the spiritual side of life:

ਗੁਣ ਮੰਡੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਘਿਉ ਸਰਮੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁੜੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਮੰਡੇ ਭਉ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥
GouN ManDay Kar Seel Gheo Saram Maas Aahaar, Giaan Gourh Salaah ManDay Bhou Maas Aahaar, Nanak Ih Bhojan Sach Hai Sach Naam AaDhaar.

Make virtue your bread, good conduct the ghee, and modesty the meat to eat. So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, the Praise of God your bread, and the Fear of God the meat you eat. O Nanak, this is the true food; let the True Name be your only Support.
-----Mardana, Raag Bihaagrha, AGGS, Page, 553-6
Kabir originally was idolater and follower of Ramanand and later became monotheistic and believed in contemplation of Naam. He being under the influence of Vedanta states about 3 things to refrain from including fish;

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥
Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.

Kabir, the mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, will all go to hell.
-----Bhagat Kabir Slokes # 233, AGGS, Page, 1377-2 & 3
There have been references to the Hukamnama of Guru Har Gobind from the book of Hukamnamas by Dr. Ganda Singh to the effect that the Gurus forbid the eating of meat. These have been annulled by the above references even if the document is true. All other foot prints are obliterated by an elephant’s footprint.
Guru Nanak’s Raag Malar is devoted to meat eating. He recited it at Kurkchetar at the festival of solar eclipse while cooking the deer meat, to remove doubts and superstitions about its eating;

ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥ Maasahu Nimmay Maasahu Janmay Ham Maasai Kay Bhaanday, Gi-aan Dhi-aan Kachh Soojhai Naahee Chatur Kahaavai PaaNday.

In the flesh we are conceived and in the flesh we are born -- we are vessels of the flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬਂ*ੀ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥
Maas PuraaNee Maas Kataybeen Chaoh Jug Maas KamaaNaa, PaanDay Too JaaNai Hee Naahee Kithoh Maas Upunnaa, To-i-ahu Ann Kamaad KapaahaaN To-i-ahu Taribhavan Gannaa, Maat Pitaa Kee Rakat Nipannay Machhee Maas Na KhaaNhee, Istaree Purkhai JaaN Nis Maylaa Othai ManDh Kamaahee.

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas and in other Holy books. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. O Pundit, you do not know where meat originated. Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers who do not eat fish or meat. But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Malaar, AGGS, Page, 1290
The complete Sabd translated;

First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh. When he comes alive, his mouth takes flesh; his bones, skin and body are flesh. He comes out of the womb of flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh at the breast. His mouth is flesh, his tongue is flesh; his breath is in the flesh. He grows up and is married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home. Flesh is produced from flesh; all relatives are made of flesh. When the mortal meets the True Guru, and realizes the Akal Purkh's Command, then he comes to be reformed. Releasing himself, the mortal does not find release; O, Nanak through empty words, one is ruined.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. What is called meat, and what is called a green vegetable? What leads to sin? It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people?

They cannot answer, or even understand what is said. They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh. In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh. They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind. In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in other religious scriptures and the Quran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.
Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat. If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them. The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven -- look at this injustice. You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pundit, you are very wise indeed. O Pundit, you do not know where meat originated. Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms. Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks.

Conclusion:

Every material thing develops from water whether meat or vegetable. It is the remembering of God which is important rather than debating unnecessarily of the merits of vegetables or of meat. Personal considerations must determine what is good or bad for a person. In AGGS there is no prohibition about eating or cooking meat. Guru Nanak cooked deer meat at the festival of the solar eclipse at Kurchetar to remove doubt and superstition. According to Vedanta philosophy called ahimsa, it is advised to refrain from injuring - physically, mentally or emotionally - anyone or any living creature, which has creped in to Sikh Faith.
virinder S.Grewal
Williamston, MI

 
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I was just reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and came across this shabad:-

Page 1350, Line 5
ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/new-to-sikhism/23227-i-still-cant-find-peace-meat.html
जउ सभ महि एकु खुदाइ कहत हउ तउ किउ मुरगी मारै ॥१॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23227
Ja▫o sabẖ mėh ek kẖuḏā▫e kahaṯ ha▫o ṯa▫o ki▫o murgī mārai. ||1||
You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Dear Sir,

The debate is not on killing any thing but eating meat which is a personal choice. Guru Nanak in Siri Raag and Raag Malar clearly advises that the food which affects the mind (like Alcohol & drugs) is bad.
ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
Baabaa Hor Khaanaa Khusee Khu-aar, Jit Khadhai Tan Peerhai Man Meh Chaleh Vikaar.
O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind.
-----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 16-14
ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥ Maasahu Nimmay Maasahu Janmay Ham Maasai Kay Bhaanday, Gi-aan Dhi-aan Kachh Soojhai Naahee Chatur Kahaavai PaaNday.
In the flesh we are conceived and in the flesh we are born -- we are vessels of the flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬਂ*ੀ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥ Maas PuraaNee Maas Kataybeen Chaoh Jug Maas KamaaNaa, PaanDay Too JaaNai Hee Naahee Kithoh Maas Upunnaa, To-i-ahu Ann Kamaad KapaahaaN To-i-ahu Taribhavan Gannaa, Maat Pitaa Kee Rakat Nipannay Machhee Maas Na KhaaNhee, Istaree Purkhai JaaN Nis Maylaa Othai ManDh Kamaahee.
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas and in other Holy books. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. O Pundit, you do not know where meat originated. Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers who do not eat fish or meat. But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Malaar, AGGS, Page, 1290
Secondaly water is the father and every thing meat or vegetable originates from it. Guru Nanak elucidates on page 1290-192 of AGGS that on eating vegetables it turns in to meat. What about milk which comes out of the body of meat.
Please do not spin the subject and bring religion in to individual preference of taste etc.
Referring Kabir, who wrote his sloke when he was an idolater becoming monotheistic later in life does not fit in the debate.
Of course we can agree to disagree as a human right. I have nothing more to say.
Regards.
Virinder

RAAG SOOHEE, THE WORD OF SREE RAVI DAAS JEE:
ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:
The happy soul-bride knows the worth of her Husband Lord. Renouncing pride, she enjoys peace and pleasure. She surrenders her body and mind to Him, and does not remain separate from Him. She does not see or hear, or speak to another. || 1 || How can anyone know the pain of another, if there is no compassion and sympathy within? || 1 || Pause || ang 793

Dear Sir,

Again you are spinning on the subject of meat eating or not. The subject is not compassion but eating meat. Please go and read my posting on compassion.

It should be empathy not sympathy.

Bhagat Bani is another issue which can be debated at another time.

This debate is getting no where so let us agree to disagree.

Cordially,

Virinder

Dear All,

Thread is Closed. Whosoever wants to raise a point on Meat eating may do so in the following thread. Thank you.

Topic: Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh