All Talk No Action

findingmyway · #19 (**permalink**) 09-Mar-2011, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousCour

But it seems that not every Sikh follows that to the letter.This is where im having trouble understanding.Some people say aslong as you respect the religion.Others say it doesn't matter the colour, caste etc.Then theres the teachings that the gurdwaras are open to all.When it comes to marriage though they have to be sikh?

A lot of arsonists and murderers live in the UK and claim to be British, does this make every Brit bad? In the same way not everyone who claims to be Sikh is perfect (including me). There are many other influences in life too. Maybe instead of criticising you should be trying to break stereotypes in your interactions with others. By being negative and therefore encouraging your partner to be negative towards the family, those stereotypes that 'outsiders' cause a family to split up will be propagated.

CuriousCour · #20 (**permalink**) 12-Mar-2011, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confused

CuriousCour,

I am not here as a Sikh, but working with what I understand to be general principles.
First on your own general remark, “All talk no action”.

Although each one of us must know for himself what the motives behind it all are, still it is true isn’t it, that we must start with reflective acceptance of what the rules and laws are? There is of course a difference, between stating something with an idealistic attitude and doing so with some level of understanding. But even when it is the latter, it can’t be expected that intellectual understanding must condition a practical application immediately, don’t you think? We are after all not like robots into which programs are fed in order that a change in outward behavior happens instantly.

Also although there are some rules which one applies with relative ease given a set of conditions, it should not be expected that other rules must then also be applied. We all need time to work our way into applying anything that we accept in principle. If we can follow some rules now and not others, this does not necessarily mean that we are being hypocritical or inconsistent. Besides the rules are different, some from social considerations and others pertaining to the individual. Marriage is an example of the former and smoking of the latter. Moreover the aspect about seeing everyone as equal (although I personally never work from this position), which is both social and individual, this does not even qualify as a rule, but an attitude of mind to be developed.

But most important of all is this.
Even though other people have trouble working with their fears and act in ways which appear unfair to us, it is imperative that we show kindness and feel compassion towards them for their failings.

On this particular matter of relationship that you brought up, Findingmyway ji has given what I consider to be a very nice explanation. But I’d like to add something.

All parents want for their children to be happy, always. And when it comes to one of certain age, all parents do not want to see their daughter taken advantage of by other boys and men. This includes even the most so-called open minded people. No matter even if the parents themselves went through the process of inter-marriage, even they think only for their daughter’s wellbeing. That they allow for the same to happen with their daughter, the key factor is that it is they who consent.

In your particular case, you’d therefore need the girl’s parents to be happy about it. If not, then both you and your girlfriend are blameworthy and surely you’d not like to see her do wrong, do you?

It is said that, even if we were to carry our parents on our shoulders, feeding, clothing and allowing them to do what they must in that same position till they die, we’d still not have repaid the debt we owe to them. This applies even to parents who are bad. Best way to repay the debt is to establish them in wisdom and morality. And so it follows that if we end up instead encouraging a lot of aversion, we are doing a very bad deed indeed.

When I look back at how I always tried to justify myself in order to get and do what I want, I know that I’ve been a really bad son throughout. When it came to marriage however, even though I do not believe in Sikhism and was inclined towards Buddhism, I married a Sikh woman because my parents are Sikhs and I wanted to make them happy. To marry a non-Sikh would have really hurt them. And there is no big deal about so called “love” between a man and a woman.

It is about “attachment” all the way through. Sex works to satisfy the individuals concerned, nothing more. If there is indeed any loving-kindness arising in between to act as motivator, this would be in spite of the relationship and not the result of it. The strong emotion that we feel towards the other and which can make us feel as though all the people out there are so nice and the whole world such a pleasant place to be in, is not love, but ‘illusion’ created by attachment.

This so called ‘love’ is in fact a very self-centered activity. We are always seeking to be made happy by other people and rarely do we really care about anyone. We seek to have friends, but it never occurs to us to be friendly towards all who we meet, which btw, is the real basis for ‘equality’. Kindness is the best of mental states to develop and we should all do so. Were your relationship with your girlfriend based on genuine kindness, this would possibly have had a positive influence on her parents. But then, you would also have felt kindness towards them, but clearly you do not, instead you are pointing a finger at them. And this is wrong.

No one is perfect and it is not our place to judge other people. I do not expect you or your girlfriend to be perfect, and I would not judge you as wrong if you fail to follow the principle I’ve outlined. I put them forward for your consideration and can only hope that it helps.

I had more to say, but must rush out for an appointment. I may have a small window later tonight to respond to your further comments, but I leave early next morning to a place where I won't have internet access for three days.

Confused ji

I know its a general standard to marry within the community.I also know its down to the individual whether they follow or divert from that standard.I wanted to know how many sikhs have carried out the latter.
'The motives behind it all'?Sorry i can't make clear of what your saying.
I agree theres a difference between stating and doing.For hundreds of years idealistic attitudes have been shared among many.Hasn't there been plenty of time for practical applicaion to be applied?
Ok i agree under some conditions its harder to follow some rules.In religion though it is expected that rules be applied.Your saying its not hypocritical but because of social considerations? So would you agree that social considerations have took precedence over religious principles?
I disagree any hardheaded son or daughter would be with and marry who they want regardless of parents consent.
The parents to be happy would no doubt be the favourable alternative.But if the parents are happy or not there not the ones who will be in the relationship.
So are you saying because we owe them we should live as they want us to? Not to engage in anything thats against their desire even if its unintentional.No one is encouraging aversion on purpose.Is a son/daughter doing a bad deed because their happy?
Attachment has nothing to do with love.Attachment makes you anxious of becoming detached and brings about disorder of your wellbeing.When your attached you feel incomplete and have desire to extract feeling out of the other person to keep going.Your dependent on them.Thats not the nature of love.When your complete and need nothing from nobody you can provide love.
Your confusing the two.When your seeking to be made happy thats attachment.You have to be happy within yourself to love.
I had nothing nothing but kindness towards my ex's parents.I was all for meeting them.
I know everyones not perfect and so do you.Yet you've just judge me yourself by saying i didn't show kindness :S
.
Im sorry about the long reply.My internet was cut off for a few days.Thankyou for your reply

Confused · #21 (**permalink**) 13-Mar-2011, 13:43 PM

CuriousCour,

You wrote:
I know its a general standard to marry within the community.

Cf: I was not really addressing this. The responsibility we have is not towards the community, but to one’s own parents.

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Curious:
I also know its down to the individual whether they follow or divert from that standard.I wanted to know how many sikhs have carried out the latter.

Cf: Sorry about that. I missed the original intent and went on to address other issues.

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Curious:
'The motives behind it all'?Sorry i can't make clear of what your saying.

Cf: In the end it is our own power of discernment which guides us. Until then however, we are moved all the time by desire and seek to justify these desires including in moral matters. But there are moral laws and conventional rules which reflect these laws, this can guide us away from continually flowing along the stream of desire.

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Curious:
I agree theres a difference between stating and doing.For hundreds of years idealistic attitudes have been shared among many.Hasn't there been plenty of time for practical applicaion to be applied?

Cf: Well, being practical would include accepting one’s limitations and failings isn’t it?

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Curious:
Ok i agree under some conditions its harder to follow some rules.In religion though it is expected that rules be applied.Your saying its not hypocritical but because of social considerations?

Cf: Not social considerations, but the overwhelming tendency to ignorance and craving which we all have. This doesn’t go away simply because we accept in principle, the values suggested by religion. Indeed we usually end up replacing one kind of evil with another when due to lack of understanding; we force those values upon ourselves and other people.

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Curious:
So would you agree that social considerations have took precedence over religious principles?

Cf: Social rules must rightly reflect religious values, otherwise they are useless.

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Curious:
I disagree any hardheaded son or daughter would be with and marry who they want regardless of parents consent.
The parents to be happy would no doubt be the favourable alternative.But if the parents are happy or not there not the ones who will be in the relationship.

Cf: I mentioned kindness which is a quality of mind more appropriately referred to as ‘loving-kindness’. It is this which we would all do well to encourage in our relationship with anyone, instead of the attachments which often comes under the label ‘love’. With loving-kindness, it does not matter then whether we are married or not and if so, to whom. If on the other hand we are fooled by the label ‘love’ when in reality it is attachment that we express, the situation is in fact all about ‘me’ and ‘mine’. And here as you know, no good is ever done to oneself or to the other person.

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Curious:
So are you saying because we owe them we should live as they want us to? Not to engage in anything thats against their desire even if its unintentional.

Cf: I was trying to encourage kindness which I consider to be the best guide to action. We do owe a great debt to our parents and it is imperative that we show respect and kindness towards them if not anyone else. We do not have to adopt their values, especially if they are not so moral. But we can do what they want us to do while maintaining our own sense of value. Only this must include kindness and the wisdom which has confidence in this and other good qualities.

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Curious:
No one is encouraging aversion on purpose.

Cf: Which is why some degree of understanding is needed as well. But of course, this would mean that if we fail, that’s aright too, only let’s not deny that we’ve done wrong.

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Curious:
Is a son/daughter doing a bad deed because their happy?

Cf: As an argument this is wrong isn’t it? In terms of the particular view which it could come from, I think this is a very dangerous position to hold. I realize that you do not think this way, but the danger of going wrong still lurks, so allow me to just say this:

If happiness is the deciding factor for any decisions made and actions taken, this would most definitely lead to immorality. Besides, is the kind of attitude encouraging of goodwill towards other people? I don’t think so. What about sympathy? If we want to be happy, do we not think that others want to be happy too?

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Curious:
Attachment has nothing to do with love. Attachment makes you anxious of becoming detached and brings about disorder of your wellbeing. When your attached you feel incomplete and have desire to extract feeling out of the other person to keep going. Your dependent on them. Thats not the nature of love.

Cf: Right on!
Do you however realize that the moment we wake up in the morning, attachment arises towards an object of the senses and proliferates on from one thought to the next, and this process goes on all day till the time that we go to sleep again?

There are many levels and shades of attachment, and from time to time we may notice the grosser ones. One manifestation of attachment which in fact requires wisdom to see, is what is called ‘cheating states’. These are unwanted states which are easily mistaken for good, giving the impression that we are on the right track but is in fact an attempt at glorifying the ‘self’. So we need to be careful whenever we come to a positive conclusion about our own attitudes and states of mind.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/love-and-marriage/34747-all-talk-no-action.html

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Curious:
Your confusing the two. When your seeking to be made happy thats attachment. You have to be happy within yourself to love.
I had nothing nothing but kindness towards my ex's parents. I was all for meeting them.

Cf: Only you would know what the reality is. My suggestions were aimed at a situation in which you were ignorant about your real motives and in fact going on to mistakenly think that they were good. But I’m happy to be proven wrong.

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Curious:
I know everyones not perfect and so do you. Yet you've just judge me yourself by saying i didn't show kindness :S
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=34747

Cf: It did seem like you were pointing a finger at them. But like I said, I’m happy to be proven wrong. Anyway, in the end it should not matter if I’m on or off the mark in terms of what went on. The information I provide is about what is right and what is wrong which I believe we all cannot be reminded enough about. And my rebukes are only meant to create an effect. ;-)

Randip Singh · #22 (**permalink**) 13-Mar-2011, 14:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousCour

spnadmin ji

Well im turning 22 in a week and a couple days.In my years walking this planet i have had two relationships, the second one being the on im in now.My former relationship was with an indian girl as is my current girlfriend.Basically in my last relationship (a couple years ago now) the parents got told at some sort of function that their daughter was with me.They humiliated her and made her feel guilt by saying the cliche; "look how your making us look", "your being selfish", "all what we have done for you and you repay us like this"..Well that was the end of that.Moving forward to my current relationship.It bears similarities in regards to sneaking around, being weary of who might see us in public.As people their different.Also her parents are unaware of us.The thing is i feel theres an undercurrent of hypricosy in the sikh community.People claim they don't discriminate and everyones equal.Yet their actions speak otherwise.What i mean by venturing out the community is if someone from the sikh community likes someone from a non-sikh community they won't even go there because of the problems that arise.Mainly from parents.Instead of rejecting people outside of the community because you fear the unknown, embrace them.But i also know that ethnic-minorities want to protect their culture because they feel its threatend.By people like me-half black half white.I just don't like how the world is so divided

.Afterall i wouldn't be here if my white mother and black father didn't venture into uncharted waters.Strength is in numbers!

I chose my own partner......but I made a concious decision that she should be Sikh.

Now whether she was a white Sikh, Indian Sikh, Black Sikh, Chinese Sikh, would make no difference as I want someone who has SIKH values.

People marry each other for the same values.

The Sikh community is a small community and if they chose to preserve their distinct identity by marrying within, then I see no problem with that.

That does not mean we discriminate or hate other people and their values.

Just that we wish to preserve our own!

From my understanding their are many communities who actively do this eg Chritian ones, Jewish, even Native Americans!!!

Identity, Culture, Values are very important to Sikhs!

jane2010 · #23 (**permalink**) 17-Mar-2011, 15:43 PM

I think your views are totally right