Temporary Pasture

harry haller · #19 (**permalink**) 17-Oct-2011, 15:26 PM

brother, sister, please let us not turn a wonderful thread that is developing wonderful thoughts on to another debate about alcohol, you are both right, and you are both wrong, but it is a debate that should be aired somewhere else, my opinion only
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Ambarsaria · #20 (**permalink**) 17-Oct-2011, 16:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Ambersariaji,

I think what you are proposing is that We live, we are influenced by our genes, by the people round us, by various stimulation, and then we die. On death, we live on, as a contribution to others, as others were to us on our birth, and that this is the cycle of birth and death, not a singular soul being born and dying, but many souls and information, and experiences, all intermingling and joining and dividing and creating new souls

We live on forever through this, but the magic formula that is 'us' dies at death, although elements of it live on to get merged another day

Harry Haller my brother ji, hitting the nail right on the head is what you did.

Not only after death what we do or what we are survived as; but before birth our parents, their parents, their parents, ....; their neighbors, their neighbors, ...; animals at their time, animals at their time, ...; the land at their time, the land at their time, ...; let us cut to the chase "the universe at their time, the universe at their time; etc.

Oh OK creation from time immemorial to time immemorial. Oh OK the creator from time immemorial to time immemorial.

That is consonance and creator, creation and us as part of it that I understand. That in part is the diagram representation that I perhaps did not craft so well.

Sat Sri Akal.

harry haller · #21 (**permalink**) 17-Oct-2011, 16:49 PM

it answers the two questions quite satisfactorily,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/leisure/37257-temporary-pasture.html

why am i here-to play my part to the best of my ability, and to harmonise with the rest of creation
what is the meaning of life-to be as much as I can be, with knowledge, information, and personal/non personal experience, and then to share that enlightenment with as many parts of creation as is possible in my lifetime, with the creator being reponsible for sharing it after death, such enlightenment and ways to absorb it, and act with the rest of creation are outlined in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37257

Thank you Ambersariaji, and now Im off to the bike sheds

Scarlet Pimpernel · #22 (**permalink**) 17-Oct-2011, 19:32 PM

Quote:

why am i here-to play my part to the best of my ability, and to harmonise with the rest of creation
what is the meaning of life-to be as much as I can be, with knowledge, information, and personal/non personal experience, and then to share that enlightenment with as many parts of creation as is possible in my lifetime, with the creator being reponsible for sharing it after

Veer ji What I'm wondering is that you can be executed once, whether you take a few million lives beforehand or [to the best of your ability ]decide to help millions have a better life.So death once does not seem rectify the damage done nor reward those who were great good doers,it does not to me be the end,it's closer to a start.

harry haller · #23 (**permalink**) 17-Oct-2011, 20:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Veer ji What I'm wondering is that you can be executed once, whether you take a few million lives beforehand or [to the best of your ability ]decide to help millions have a better life.So death once does not seem rectify the damage done nor reward those who were great good doers,it does not to me be the end,it's closer to a start.

I do not think there is any punishment/reward system, judgement is in the form of whether creation is better off or worse off for your existance as that 'soul' at that time

i think............

Scarlet Pimpernel · #24 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2011, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Haller

I do not think there is any punishment/reward system, judgement is in the form of whether creation is better off or worse off for your existance as that 'soul' at that time

Veer ji ,Then how do we interpret this Shabad like these of which there are many more?

Page 38, Line 18
ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਨੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਬਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

धरम राइ नो हुकमु है बहि सचा धरमु बीचारि ॥

Ḏẖaram rā▫e no hukam hai bahi sacẖā ḏẖaram bīcẖār.

The Righteous Judge of Dharma, by the Hukam of God's Command, sits and administers True Justice.

spnadmin · #25 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2011, 04:52 AM

I think if we take a look at a larger segment of the shabad we see that a different matter is being reviewed. It casts the nature of the righteous judge of dharma in a different light. Not in the sense of sorting out the wheat from the chaff. Not the one with the job of sorting out the evil from the good. This is a judge of a different sort.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37257

Let's think about the meaning of dharma. Why is dharma depicted as a wheel? Its movement changes and its transformation is continuous, and that continuity is something that is destined no matter how one may willfully try to abort it. Dharma acts within its own system of truths.

Understand also that an important meaning of dharma is "rightness," the rightness of motion and change within the the universe, as in how could it be wrong?.... and therefore, the rightness of deeds, or the balance of our deeds within the balance of the universe is a way to look at this. Rather than the idea of good deeds versus bad deeds, in a dualistic sense.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37257

Let me post the full shabad.

spnadmin · #26 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2011, 04:57 AM

A larger segment of the shabad:

Quote:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
Sri Rag, Third Guru.

ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਸਚਾ ਸਚੁ ਤੂ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੇਰੈ ਚੀਰੈ ॥
हरि जी सचा सचु तू सभु किछु तेरै चीरै ॥
Har jī sacẖā sacẖ ṯū sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯerai cẖīrai.
My adorable God, Thou art the Truest of the true. Every one is in Thy power.

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਤਰਸਦੇ ਫਿਰੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਪੀਰੈ ॥
लख चउरासीह तरसदे फिरे बिनु गुर भेटे पीरै ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh ṯarasḏe fire bin gur bẖete pīrai.
Without meeting Guru, the spiritual guide, the mortals tantalizingly wander about in eighty four lakhs of existences.

ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਬਖਸੇ ਬਖਸਿ ਲਏ ਸੂਖ ਸਦਾ ਸਰੀਰੈ ॥
हरि जीउ बखसे बखसि लए सूख सदा सरीरै ॥
Har jī▫o bakẖse bakẖas la▫e sūkẖ saḏā sarīrai.
If Reverend God forgives and grants pardon, the human body then ever remains in peace.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਸੇਵ ਕਰੀ ਸਚੁ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰੈ ॥੧॥
गुर परसादी सेव करी सचु गहिर ग्मभीरै ॥१॥
Gur parsādī sev karī sacẖ gahir gambẖīrai. ||1||
By Guru's grace, I perform the service of the True profound and unfathomable Lord.

ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
मन मेरे नामि रते सुखु होइ ॥
Man mere nām raṯe sukẖ ho▫e.
O my Soul! by being imbued with the Name thou shalt procure peace.

ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमती नामु सलाहीऐ दूजा अवरु न कोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmaṯī nām salāhī▫ai ḏūjā avar na ko▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Under Guru's guidance praise the Lord's Name, (for) there is no other second than He. Pause.

ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਨੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਬਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
धरम राइ नो हुकमु है बहि सचा धरमु बीचारि ॥
Ḏẖaram rā▫e no hukam hai bahi sacẖā ḏẖaram bīcẖār.
The Righteous Judge is under command to sit and administer even-handed justice.

ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਆਤਮਾ ਓਹੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਕਾਰ ॥
दूजै भाइ दुसटु आतमा ओहु तेरी सरकार ॥
Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ḏusat āṯmā oh ṯerī sarkār.
The evil souls with love for duality; they are thine subjects.

ਅਧਿਆਤਮੀ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਤਾਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਜਪਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥
अधिआतमी हरि गुण तासु मनि जपहि एकु मुरारि ॥
Aḏẖi▫āṯmī har guṇ ṯās man jāpėh ek murār.
God, the Treasure of excellences abides within the heart of the spiritual wayfarers and they meditate on One Lord the enemy of ego.9

First of all, when Guruji says, Ḏūjai bẖā▫e ḏusat āṯmā oh ṯerī sarkār.
The evil souls with love for duality; they are thine subjects.

Who is "thine?" "Thine" is refering to "Oh my soul!" This shabad is about bringing evil souls into alignment, into balance, away from their love of imbalance that comes from egoism and love of duality. The judge of dharma is under the hukam of Waheguru (who is dharma) to judge, to make an assessment. The assessment questions: Where are the spiritual wayfarers in a state of ego, duality? Where are the wayfarers who have found the treasure of excellence? In the rehao line we learn how to find the treasure of excellence. All the lines that follow the rehao describe the states of duality versus bliss. The shabad deserves more attention than I have given it. But it is important not to think that the judge of dharma is conducting some sort of celestial judgement in the Christian sense which is similar to the judgement made of souls who wish to enter heaven.

Now here is the second part of the shabad, on Ang 39.

The cost to those who do not find the treasure of excellence is to wander around like a lunatic. But it is not the judge of dharma who casts them into the darkness, into lunacy. They/we do this to ourselves easily enough, and do not require any assistance, it would appear. It happens when we are simply out of balance with the divine.

Quote:

ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਕਰੈ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਵਾਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
तिन की सेवा धरम राइ करै धंनु सवारणहारु ॥२॥
Ŧin kī sevā ḏẖaram rā▫e karai ḏẖan savāraṇhār. ||2||
The Righteous Judge does their service. Felicitous is the Lord who adorns them.

ਮਨ ਕੇ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਮਨਹਿ ਤਜੈ ਮਨਿ ਚੂਕੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
मन के बिकार मनहि तजै मनि चूकै मोहु अभिमानु ॥
Man ke bikār manėh ṯajai man cẖūkai moh abẖimān.
If man sheds his mind's evils in the mind itself and banishes from it worldly love and self conceit,

ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਸਹਜੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਨੁ ॥
आतम रामु पछाणिआ सहजे नामि समानु ॥
Āṯam rām pacẖẖāṇi▫ā sėhje nām samān.
then does he come to recognise the Pervading Soul and easily gets absorbed in the Lord's name.

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨੁ ॥
बिनु सतिगुर मुकति न पाईऐ मनमुखि फिरै दिवानु ॥
Bin saṯgur mukaṯ na pā▫ī▫ai manmukẖ firai ḏivān.
Without the True Guru, and apostate obtains not salvation and wanders about like a lunatic.

ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੈ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
सबदु न चीनै कथनी बदनी करे बिखिआ माहि समानु ॥३॥
Sabaḏ na cẖīnai kathnī baḏnī kare bikẖi▫ā māhi samān. ||3||
He reflects not on the Word but utters mere words from mouth and is engrossed in sins.

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
सभु किछु आपे आपि है दूजा अवरु न कोइ ॥
Sabẖ kicẖẖ āpe āp hai ḏūjā avar na ko▫e.
Everything the Lord Himself is. There is no other second.

ਜਿਉ ਬੋਲਾਏ ਤਿਉ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਬੁਲਾਏ ਸੋਇ ॥
जिउ बोलाए तिउ बोलीऐ जा आपि बुलाए सोइ ॥
Ji▫o bolā▫e ṯi▫o bolī▫ai jā āp bulā▫e so▫e.
When that Lord Himself causes us to speak, we speak just as He wants us to speak.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
गुरमुखि बाणी ब्रहमु है सबदि मिलावा होइ ॥
Gurmukẖ baṇī barahm hai sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e.
The Exalted Guru's Word is God Himself and it is through Word that man obtains union with God.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ਤੂ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੬੩॥
नानक नामु समालि तू जितु सेविऐ सुखु होइ ॥४॥३०॥६३॥
Nānak nām samāl ṯū jiṯ sevi▫ai sukẖ ho▫e. ||4||30||63||
O Guru Nanak! Remember thee God's Name, by serving whom, thou shalt obtain peace.

This part explains what the judge of dharma is to do, with the mercy and kindness of the almighty. I am going to oversimplify and say that the judge of dharma is the servant of the spiritual wayfarers who have enshrined the Treasure of the Lord's name in their hearts. In other words, these are the souls that have found balance, equipoise, alignment in dharma, oneness with the creator who is dharma.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #27 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2011, 14:43 PM

Quote:

This part explains what the judge of dharma is to do, with the mercy and kindness of the almighty. I am going to oversimplify and say that the judge of dharma is the servant of the spiritual wayfarers who have enshrined the Treasure of the Lord's name in their hearts. In other words, these are the souls that have found balance, equipoise, alignment in dharma, oneness with the creator who is dharma.

Thanks for your time and I understand why you ask that we post a full shabad,we need to do it to make sense of things properly,I think I understand what you mean,but what is the judge of those souls without balance, equipoise and alignment?I ask only because I'm a member of that group.