What do the Five Thieves Steal?

harry haller · #37 (**permalink**) 08-Oct-2011, 20:27 PM

Gurfatehji

Another quite brilliant post Bhagatsinghji, although my own thoughts are somewhat different.

I put it to you all that the 5 thieves are absolutely essential. I do not draw on my skills as a scholar here (which is just as well, really..) , but more my experience in life.

The five thieves provide an earthly balance, they provide you with the gift of common sense, earthly wisdom and perception, and stop you being completely immersed in Guru. This does raise the issue, should one be completely immersed in Guru?, I would think the answer, for me anyway, is no, for that is the road to asceticism, and in any case, if you are going to spend all your time looking for enlightenment, who is going to feed the hungry, care for the poor, lend an ear to someone that needs to talk,

On this subject, why would we be looking for enlightenment anyway, surely to look for it, we must want it, and if we want it, why do we want it?, to be cleverer than others? to know the answers others do not know? In my humble view enlightenment, joining with the jyot, opening the shutters in your head to the light, whatever you want to call it, there can only be 1 possible use for this knowledge, and that is to serve the Creator better in interacting with Creation. Well, if the Creator deems me ready to gaze upon the riches of knowledge and understanding, then I am sure he will assist me not only with that, but with a task to put it to good use too.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/leisure/37128-what-do-the-five-thieves-steal.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37128

I personally do not think pushing the boundaries of knowledge and understanding is going to educate yourself any quicker, I favour keeping your eyes and ears open for the word of Guru that exists all around you, and is speaking to you through various mediums of Creation throughout your day

Scarlet Pimpernel · #38 (**permalink**) 09-Oct-2011, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

my own thoughts are somewhat different.I put it to you all that the 5 thieves are absolutely essential.
The five thieves provide an earthly balance, they provide you with the gift of common sense, earthly wisdom and perception, and stop you being completely immersed in Guru.

Veera it's not your thoughts that matter ,what matters is the Guru's thoughts, they have been quoted and it is obvious they contradict yours.

Ambarsaria · #39 (**permalink**) 09-Oct-2011, 09:32 AM

Ishna ji an attemp at answering your query from the following and I have not repeated complete Gurbani quote here,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/leisur...tml#post154323

Quote:

The Bhai Manmohan Singh translation doesn't mention perfection in this part of Japji Sahib:

The keyword I believe is Sidha which Dr. Khalsa has translated as the beings of spiritual perfection

ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥ ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਾ ਸਿਧਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥੩੬॥
तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरति मति मनि बुधि ॥ तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरा सिधा की सुधि ॥३६॥
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai suraṯ maṯ man buḏẖ. Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai surā siḏẖā kī suḏẖ. ||36||

The intuitive consciousness, intellect and understanding of the mind are shaped there. The consciousness of the spiritual warriors and the Siddhas, the beings of spiritual perfection, are shaped there. ||36||

ਤਿਥੈ = ਉਸ ਦਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਵਿਚ। ਘੜੀਐ = ਘੜੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ। ਸੁਰਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ = ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਸੂਝ। ਸਿਧਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ = ਸਿੱਧਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਅਕਲ।

ਉਸ ਮਿਹਨਤ ਵਾਲੀ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਵਿਚ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਘੜੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਸੁਰਤ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਉੱਚੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ) ਅਤੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਸਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਵਿਚ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਤੇ ਸਿੱਧਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਅਕਲ (ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ) ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।੩੬। ❁ਭਾਵ: ਗਿਆਨ-ਅਵਸਥਾ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਜਿਉਂ ਜਿਉਂ ਸਾਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਇਕ ਸਾਂਝਾ ਟੱਬਰ ਦਿੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੀਵ ਖ਼ਲਕਤਿ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੀ ਮਿਹਨਤ (-'ਸਰਮ' ਸਿਰ 'ਤੇ ਚੁੱਕਦਾ ਹੈ, ਮਨ ਦੀ ਪਹਿਲੀ ਤੰਗ-ਦਿਲੀ ਹਟ ਕੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਾਲਤਾ ਤੇ ਉਦਾਰਤਾ ਦੀ ਘਾੜਤ ਵਿਚ ਮਨ ਨਵੇਂ ਸਿਰੇ ਸੋਹਣਾ ਘੜਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਇਕ ਨਵੀਂ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਸੁਰਤਿ ਉੱਚੀ ਹੋਣ ਲੱਗ ਪੈਂਦੀ ਹੈ।੩੬।
There the state of consciousness and intellect is created and embedded. One builds a higher intellect like the Sidhs (Note: see also Sidh Gosht as Sidh’s were not classed as perfection or an end goal in intellectual achievement).

Considering Prof. Sahib Singh's Teeka there is no question about incorrect translation of converting Sidh intellect into "spiritual perfection".

Thanks Ishna ji for flagging this.

Sat Sri Akal.

harry haller · #40 (**permalink**) 09-Oct-2011, 14:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinner

Veera it's not your thoughts that matter ,what matters is the Guru's thoughts, they have been quoted and it is obvious they contradict yours.

If the Guru's thoughts contradict me than I am always happy to refine my thinking, as firstly and foremost it is the Guru's voice in my head I take my direction from. I do not wish to anger anyone but my own opinion is that I am not prepared to rely on the translation of another for my own interpretation, on that basis, you can find anything to justify anything. Until the point at which I can understand fully a shabad in its native language, I am afraid I am able only to embrace what I can understand, truth, love, to have no enemies, to have no fear and to worship the Creator through service to Creation. That much I do understand, and that much I live, for the minute it is enough for me, once it is second nature, I will move on to a complete study of thieves, so I will have to accept your stand on this and bow down to your translation for the purposes of this debate.

However, my opinion is my heartfelt feeling given the limited amount I know about Gurbani and Sikh philosophy

Scarlet Pimpernel · #41 (**permalink**) 09-Oct-2011, 21:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

what I can understand, truth, love, to have no enemies, to have no fear and to worship the Creator through service to Creation.

Veera Remember those five are your enemies ,now I suggest you do what you said and have no enemies or were you thinking of letting them remove you.

harry haller · #42 (**permalink**) 09-Oct-2011, 21:48 PM

hahahah very good brother, but I do not consider them my enemies, they are part of me, I am not prepared to go on a mental battle with them when I could be using the time much more wisely.

Neither of us is going to win this one brother, I respect your views for you though, enjoy the battle, I hope you do not lose your head in the process......

Scarlet Pimpernel · #43 (**permalink**) 10-Oct-2011, 04:09 AM

Veera they are always described as not being good for you, even though they want to reside with you, you don't need them,for example what would a little greed be good for, so you could commit a small theft instead of an international fraud?
Quote Ambarsaria Ji,I am trying to understand if the following would classify as small or big "greed"
They say there is no end to the greed one can display, 'but left to my own devices I probably would...'
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37128
keep eating when my stomach is full and not leave enough for others to eat or fill my tank when I didn't need it
Selfishness is pocket size display of greed.
I have a house but opt to buy a bigger house beyond my needs because I won a lottery (I wish) versus giving
I would probably buy a 60 inch plasma display to put in the house.
A man has a wife, but the group allows him to have four. Is he lucky or greedy or neither and just immoral.
He is very lucky as the group could have allowed ten.
We can go through above four and then pose more as there is no end in sight. Greed will be defined by the perpetrator
Greed has been defined by the Guru as being a dog.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37128
who may or may not recognize it as such or the moral police (Greed Detection Section).
G.D.S. in a Saint is like Interpol , G.D.S. in a sinner is like Punjabi police.

Picture shows early Synonyms clay tablet

Ambarsaria · #44 (**permalink**) 10-Oct-2011, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinner

Veera they are always described as not being good for you, even though they want to reside with you, you don't need them,for example what would a little greed be good for, so you could commit a small theft instead of an international fraud?

Veer may be we can define a bit what we (you) are trying to eliminate. Let us take the one you referred to above. Namely, the evil of greed.

I am trying to understand if the following would classify as small or big "greed"

,

I keep eating when my stomach is full and don't leave enough for others to eat
Local gas station is having a Gas/Petrol sale and there lines of motorists. The station is going to run out of Gas but I fill my tank full regardless and don't concern with others and I have no plans to drive the car immediately.
I have a house but opt to buy a bigger house beyond my needs because I won a lottery (I wish) versus giving or using the lottery money for more needy.
A man has a wife, but the group allows him to have four. Is he lucky or greedy or neither and just immoral.

We can go through above four and then pose more as there is no end in sight. Greed will be defined by the perpetrator who may or may not recognize it as such or the moral police (Greed Detection Section).

Sat Sri Akal.

Ambarsaria · #45 (**permalink**) 10-Oct-2011, 11:17 AM

Sinner veer ji comment on the following,

Quote:

We can go through above four and then pose more as there is no end in sight. Greed will be defined by the perpetrator
Greed has been defined by the Guru.

Teaching on how to handle greed but not every example or description of greed. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not a dictionary or a book of synonyms.

who may or may not recognize it as such or the moral police (Greed Detection Section).
G.D.S. in a Saint is like Interpol , G.D.S. in a sinner is like Punjabi police.

What does G.D.S. stand for!
Punjab (what is Punjabi police!) Police we all know and they do work with Interpol I assume.

Sat Sri Akal.