Translations: how reliable

translation of gurbani is quite difficuilt.If some wants too deeply understand punjabi then he should learn gurmukhi
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Hi Kds ji,
You are right that English translations are handy, but some of them are almost incorrect.There is always a doubt about the correctness .You may kindly look into the following.
Here again 'sabad; has been translated into 'word of the Shabad',it is incorrect. Whenever I read 'word of shabad' I presume that the meaning is that 'sabad' that was uttered by HIM at the time of creation. It is only oflate that I had to refer to the teeka of Dr Sahib Singh ji that this confusion was removed.
kindly go thru. the following and the corresponding translation/commentary of Dr. Sahib singh ji. Matter has been amplified by Sahib Singh ji and looks perfectly ok, though I am not an expert in the field but do have some working knowledge of Gurmukhi.


gur qy sbid imlwvw hoie ]2] (158-6, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 3)
Through the Guru, we are absorbed in the Word of the Shabad. ||2||

TRanslation By Sahib Singh ji.

jy gurU iml pey qW (mnu`K Awpxy AMdroN) iqRSnw dI A`g buJw lYNdw hY, gurU dI rwhIN hI (mnu`K dy) mn ivc SWqI Aw v`sdI hY, gurU pwsoN hI Awqmk pivqRqw Awqmk su`c imldI hY [ gurU dI rwhIN hI gurU dy Sbd ivc juV ky prmwqmw nwl imlwp huMdw hY [2[
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/learn-punjabi/17859-translations-how-reliable.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

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The translations of Dr. Sahib ji are not translations as well.These are commentaries as well.
Cannot we make a request to SGPC to have a look into the matter and issue/release some published material in gurmukhi so that there is some reliability?.

The translators are also handicapped on account of the fact that they cannot invent new words in English that matches the color and flavor of the original words of the Bani. Hence they prefer to stick to literal meaning that renders the translation that is many a times confusing.

You are also right that these translations would be difficult but then we should have some authentic material as well.
thx and rgds.

Seeker ji

gurbani is written in poetry and that too in metaphorical style with mythology as well.It makes its translation very very difficuilt.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

you are right when you say that translation is sometime incorrect.i THink in this matter you should contact some missionaries from

Sikh-MARG "The Way Of Life"

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859
The sikh scholars on that site publish many articles may be some one could look at this matter

As far as SGPC is concerned forget about it they are not going to do anything

Seeker07 ji and kds1980 ji

This conversation has been so interesting that I have just been reading and thinking about the same comments over and over again. And in fact have been doing a little research on problems of translation of religious scriptures in general.

Seeker ji, you chose the perfect example to illustrate the difficulty of translating Bani for the native speaker of English -- and the problem may not be one of accuracy. You chose,

kyvl rwm nwmu min visAw nwmy hI mukiq pweI ] (637-16, soriT, mÚ 3)
The Name of the Lord alone abides in their minds; through the Naam, the Name of the Lord, they find liberation.

The straightforward translation ....through the Name of the Lord they find liberation--- creates a difficulty in the English language. The meaning of Naam gets confused with the literal meaning of Name. The shabd is saying more. An English speaking person reading the straightforward translation will think OK -- the Name of the Lord is the key to liberation. Which leads in turn to tangential questions such as, Well what is the Name of the Lord anyway? Completely off the track.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

By adding another Naam, the translator is actually picking up on the fact that the shabd says, raam naam-- which is more than the Name of the Lord. The shabd is taking about the celestial sound of the Name, the naad, the mystical connection. By adding another Naam, he is emphasizing that the Naam is more than the Name. Translators have to do this so that readers will perhaps get the point.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

On the other hand, there are many examples where translations have been so free that they are misleading and in the end have to be incorrect.

Dear Sadh Sangat Jio,

Here's the full shabad:


ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

koikl hovw AMib bsw shij sbd bIcwru ] (157-4, gauVI bYrwgix, mÚ 1)
If I were to become a cuckoo, living in a mango tree, I would still contemplate the Word of the Shabad.


The translation of this as given is incorrect.

I shall again put the translation of Sahib Singh ji and then try to explain as to why it is so.:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

(1.]koiel dI AMb nwl pRIiq pRis`D hY [
2.]AMb auqy bYT ky koiel im`TI msq sur ivc kUkdI hY [
3. jy myrI pRIiq pRBU nwm auho jyhI ho jwey jYsI koiel dI AMb nwl hY qW)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

4. mYN koiel bxW, AMb auqy bYTW (BwvpRBU-nwm ƒ AwpxI izMdgI dw shwrw bxwvW) qy msq Afol hwlq ivc itk ky pRBU dI is&iq-swlwh dy SbddI ivcwr krW (Sbdivc ic`q joVW) [
5.msq Afol AvsQw ivc itikAW, pRym ivc juiVAW hI ipAwrw drSnI sohxw byAMq pRBU-pqI imldw hY]

For your benefit I am reproducing the above translation [as far as my English permits, I shall be giving a literal translation of the Gurmukhi translation] that is, more or less, a standard commentary till date that we have :

[1.The love of the cockoo and the mango is popular/famous/well known.

2.It sings sweetly with joy when it is on the mango tree.

3.If my love for lord becomes the same as is of the cuckoo for the mango. ]

4.I become cuckoo, sit on the mango [essence: Lord’s name becomes the support of my life] and in this carefree and stable condition contemplate/think of the sabad of praise of the Lord [ with mind imbued in sabad ]
5. Being in stable and carefree condition, only imbued in love the beautiful unfathomable Lord-Husband is realized.||



This has taken quite a time.
Kindly look at the above translation for three of four times.

Now look at sentence 4.
What do you conclude as to the meaning of ‘sabad’.?
Ask now the following questions:

Is ‘sabad’ the eternal ‘word’ that you have stated as 'celestial word'.
If so:

What is there to contemplate?

If you have /one has reached the level of having a knowledge of that celestial ‘word’ that one can contemplate on this then I think he/she/one has reached a very high order of spirituality and then one need not even read Gurbani as he/she would already be in communion with the Lord.

In the following sentence/line reproduced here:

koikl hovw AMib bsw shij sbd bIcwru ] (157-4, gauVI bYrwgix, mÚ 1)

The word in blue is BEE CHAAR [on translation] and in Gurmukhi it means to think/ contemplate .


One does not think of the 'celestial word' as one cannot and need not do that. Hence all that the line states is

4.I become cuckoo, sit on the mango [essence: Lord’s name becomes the support of my life] and in this carefree and stable condition contemplate/think of the sabad of praise of the Lord [ with mind imbued in sabad ]
5. Being in stable and carefree condition, only imbued in love the beautiful unfathomable Lord-Husband is realized.||

Hope the situation is clear.It has taken me about one and half hour.
If there is problem you may come back . We can discuss again as the 'word of the Shabad ' has appeared 644 times in the translated copy of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

Regards.

Sorry respected begum Ji,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859
I did not see your post that was done in betwen my post and aad ji's post. In any case your post is in sync. with aad ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859
Forgetting the english translation for a minute, you may also look at the term 'beechaar'. If one has heard/known the celestial word one need not contemplate on this.
Submitted for valuable opinion.

a key point to note is that when we read gurbani in english, it's not actually "translations", but "interpretations". direct word for word translations usually do not make much sense and always loose the rhythem and flow of the original poetry.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

personally, i keep four gutkas, all different translations, and kind of try to pull out the "essence" of the nitnem banis by rotating through them.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

the original gurmukhi is best, of course.

Respected discussants,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

Without having really spent enough time on recent comments, my quick reply is that Kelly Kaur's approach is wise. Poetric form as well has language has to be translated from one language to the other.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

As for the cuckoo in the mango tree. khoiel alludes to a songbird. In fact there is no specific word in Punjabi for songbird. But khoeil not mean cuckoo. The word for cuckoo is chaathrik(a). Translators use the words songbird and cuckoo interchangeably. Probably because of the symbolism of the cuckoo in Gurbani, and in context the cuckoo is the particular songbird under consideration. I believe the point of the shabd is not to consider cuckoos and their love for the mango tree. A direct English translation would give that impression however. The idea is rather to think about the spiritual attraction depicted in the image. Being drawn to Divine Fruit, the fruit of ivxwr.

The average person would be unmoved by the thought of a bird in a tree. In fact the average native speaker has to have this entire matter of the imagery of birds in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji explained to them. The typical reaction is "Duh"! Why birds?

Later I will read this more carefully.

This has taken quite a time.
Kindly look at the above translation for three of four times.

Now look at sentence 4.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859
What do you conclude as to the meaning of ‘sabad’.?
Ask now the following questions:

Is ‘sabad’ the eternal ‘word’ that you have stated as 'celestial word'.
If so:

What is there to contemplate?

If you have /one has reached the level of having a knowledge of that celestial ‘word’ that one can contemplate on this then I think he/she/one has reached a very high order of spirituality and then one need not even read Gurbani as he/she would already be in communion with the Lord.


Seeker07 Ji,

You have asked a very valid question and I can see the pains you have taken which led you to ask this question. These are the 'nishaniaa' of a true seeker.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17859

To answer your question is no easy task as one has to use a parable or an indirect explanation to drive home a point. The reason for this is to shift one's consciousness from point A to point B.