Jews and Sikhs: How Similar Can We Get?

keepscomingback · #73 (**permalink**) 18-Feb-2010, 12:00 PM

To return to the topic *AT* hand/

I was just listening to a brief discussion elsewhere on the seeming disparity between the 'antinomian' path of Guru Nanak and that of Guru Gobind Singh, where there seemed to be an establishment of ritual symbols, etc. I was reminded again of Judaism, and the Avot (the forefathers), and how their lives and relationship with God were very different one from another, and made for very different spiritual compositions, though as is said three times daily in prayers to God - "The God of Avraham, God of Yitzhak, the God of Yaakov" - as despite/because of their different 'paths', they all sequentially reverenced God in ways that were foundational for all (a diverse nation), who followed after.

keepscomingback · #74 (**permalink**) 18-Feb-2010, 22:45 PM

Two more unusual examples between Judaism and Sikhism; traditionally it is understood that Abraham (as the first leader of the path that became Judaism), kept his tent open on four sides so that travelers (in the spiritual and physical sense), would have easy access to his hospitality.

Additionally, a recent book called "Created Equal" by Joshua Berman (Oxford U. Press), chronicles the profound paradigm shift towards political egalitarianism and equality that was initiated by the composition of the people Israel and the text of Torah (an essay appears below, so people can make comparisons to Guru Nanak's teachings, the formation of Sikh Sangat - and their similarly-amazing incongruity with their social and political setting);
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/judaism/17453-jews-sikhs-how-similar-can-we.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17453

http://createdequalthebook.com/Publi.../Azure%202.pdf

keepscomingback · #75 (**permalink**) 19-Feb-2010, 04:21 AM

Oops, the first paragraph about Abraham's tent was a parallel to Hamandir Sahib.

Astroboy · #76 (**permalink**) 19-Mar-2010, 22:20 PM

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/judais...bi-froman.html

Astroboy · #77 (**permalink**) 03-Apr-2012, 18:49 PM

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikhism_and_Judaism

Brother Onam · #78 (**permalink**) 14-Jan-2013, 10:01 AM

Sat Sri Akal, family,
I read this thread and feel I ought to clarify a key point in this discussion.
At the risk of igniting a powder-keg, we need to understand that when you dig into Truth, and Sikhi is devotion to Truth, you may discover shades of identity we don't readily recognize by superficial observation.
What is understood as 'jews' today is very different from the original seeds of that faith, racially, and doctrine. The reason this matters is because so many of these questions and comments deal with modern-day Judaism. In actual fact, the faith has its roots in Canaan, North-East Africa, and the ancient African Hebrews who lived out the history reflected in the Bible were a very different people than the largely ''ashkenazi" jews who flowed to the Palestinian region from Poland, Russia and Eastern Europe and took on the mantle of Judaism after the original Israelites were driven out, scattered and exhiled by the conquering Romans. These original African Hebrews were driven into the continent of Africa where we find many traces of their dispersion. The Judaism being referenced in this forum is the hybrid faith devised by the ashkenazi and, as such, reflects as much Eastern European tradition and lifestyle as ancient Semitic religion. Thus the Eastern European garb, the Yiddish and modern Hebrew language, the European racial characteristics we associate with contemporary Judaism.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17453
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17453
It would be good to bear this in mind when seeking out shared holiness between our faiths.
Btw, I got a kick out of the poster who commented on the temperament of Jews and thought them peaceful people. If you were living in Palestine today, and were on the receiving end of the zionist's 'peaceful' temperament, I think you might gain a different perspective pretty quick...

Awakeand Singh · #79 (**permalink**) 15-Jan-2013, 16:44 PM

"What is understood as 'jews' today is very different from the original seeds of that faith, racially, and doctrine. The reason this matters is because so many of these questions and comments deal with modern-day Judaism. In actual fact, the faith has its roots in Canaan, North-East Africa, and the ancient African Hebrews who lived out the history reflected in the Bible were a very different people than the largely ''ashkenazi" jews who flowed to the Palestinian region from Poland, Russia and Eastern Europe and took on the mantle of Judaism after the original Israelites were driven out, scattered and exhiled by the conquering Romans. These original African Hebrews were driven into the continent of Africa where we find many traces of their dispersion. The Judaism being referenced in this forum is the hybrid faith devised by the ashkenazi and, as such, reflects as much Eastern European tradition and lifestyle as ancient Semitic religion. Thus the Eastern European garb, the Yiddish and modern Hebrew language, the European racial characteristics we associate with contemporary Judaism."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17453
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17453

Bhai ji, do you have any documented proof for any of this?

Brother Onam · #80 (**permalink**) 15-Jan-2013, 20:25 PM

Waheguru, paji,
It's hard to point to one particular resource; it's really more a question of seeking out the actual Truth, beyond the proffered version, in all things. There really is much material available but scattered across the sciences, of anthropology, history, genetics, religious history...
If you go to Israel today, squarely in the Middle East/North Africa (separated by the Suez canal in the the 1860's), and look around you, you feel you are in Europe. The prevailing race, culture and lifestyle is overwhelmingly European. It is no secret that the 'Hebrew' language used today is a modern construction reconstituted from ancient elements of a largely 'dead' language, dreamed up by one individual, a Russian named Ben-Yehudah, together with some other European jews. This language is vastly different from the actual tongue of the African Hebrews in Old Testament times. Similarly, the belief systems of contemporary, Rabbinical Jews is greatly changed from what was the living faith of the ancient residents of that region.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17453
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17453
If you're genuinely interested in this, I would point you to the writings of Dr. Ben- Jochannan, also the book "Hebrewisms of West Africa" by Joseph Williams, "African Origins of Modern Judaism" by Jose Malcioln, "From Babylon to Timbuktu" by Rudolph Windsor, as well as recent DNA research concluding that Africans practicing Judaism in the deserts of South Africa are indeed genetic descendants of Biblical priests. This is all just to confirm that the original Israelites were scattered into greater Africa upon the invasions of the Romans, and that the Jews of today who have taken up and redefined that tradition in the absence of the original Israelites, represent a much different tradition than the African Hebrew faith of ancient history.
That modern-day Jews have come to that land largely from Eastern Europe is no great secret.
All of this is just to say that when we compare, for instance, the philosophy of Sikhi with the philosophy of Judaism, it is good to be aware of this distinction. Most Sikhs would be greatly offended if a forum elsewhere might be looking to compare their faith with that of Sikhism and then started out by claiming "Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism", and then began their discussions based on that premise. Truth is Truth.

Awakeand Singh · #81 (**permalink**) 16-Jan-2013, 02:05 AM

If you go to Israel today, squarely in the Middle East/North Africa (separated by the Suez canal in the the 1860's), and look around you, you feel you are in Europe. The prevailing race, culture and lifestyle is overwhelmingly European.

Well, I've been living in Israel for over half my life. first of all, Israel is not in North Africa - but, Asia. Secondly, the nation consists of so very many national and ethnic groups, it's just about impossible to say where you "feel" you are. Shkunat HaBukharim in Jerusalem retains much of the character of the residents' native Bukhara, in Central Asia. The HaTiqva neighborhood in Tel-Aviv is still largely populated by Jews from Yemen. My own neighborhood boasts immigrant communities from former Soviet Georgia, India, Ethiopia, Iraq, Hungary, Russia, France, etc., as well as every imaginable mixture. If you "feel you are in Europe", it may have more to do with the advanced living standard, relative to that of the surrounding countries. Yes, it was brought about within the last 100 years by Jewish pioneers from Europe - although I hasten to mention that they found Jewish communities when they arrived; communities that had been here since the dispersion of the greater masses of Jews at the hands of the Roman conquerors.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17453
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=17453

Today the ethnic balance has tilted in favor of the Maghrebi and Mizrachi Jews (from North Africa and the Middle East, respectively). For this we can thank the Arab world, which made the lives of the centuries and millenia-old Jewish communities in their midst so miserable that emigration became the norm - as the remaining options were forced conversion to Islam or death (as Christian, Baha'i, and other communities who have long-resided in the Middle East and North Africa are experiencing today; ask the Sikhs of Afghanistan how welcome they feel in the land where they have lived for hundreds of years!).

It is no secret that the 'Hebrew' language used today is a modern construction reconstituted from ancient elements of a largely 'dead' language, dreamed up by one individual, a Russian named Ben-Yehudah, together with some other European jews. This language is vastly different from the actual tongue of the African Hebrews in Old Testament times.

A "largely 'dead' language", in that it hadn't been spoken, but it has most certainly been an active literary language (in which the majority of male Jews of every diaspora community have always been literate) from the very beginnings of the Jewish People. To the best of my knowledge, the only surviving language of an African Jewish community is Ge'ez, which is the liturgical language of the Beta Israel of Ethiopia, the overwhelming majority of whom were recently airlifted in two dramatic operations to the modern State of Israel. I have also heard that the Ibo of Biafra claim themselves to be descendants of the 10 lost Tribes of the ancient Northern Kingdom of Israel, but their claim is much more tenuous than that of the Beta Israel.

Similarly, the belief systems of contemporary, Rabbinical Jews is greatly changed from what was the living faith of the ancient residents of that region.

The practices have certainly developed, as they would need to have been adapted to an existence outside the Land of Israel, without the service of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. This adaptation process had already begun in the Babylonian exile, centuries before the Roman exile that ended Israel as an independent national entity, and it continues to this day - with rabbinic responsa from Israel and diaspora communities the world over contributing learned opinions, based on the Jewish People's original documents of nationhood (the Written Torah - also known as the Pentateuch, or, Five Books of Moses; and the Oral Torah, which was written down and redacted in Babylon and Israel - and popularly known as the Talmud). But the belief system is surprisingly consistent.

Truth is Truth.

Indeed, but Malcom X, along with the other Afro-centrists (some of whose support texts you have kindly listed above) define "history" as, "his story". Truth, taken in such a context, becomes something of an elusive commodity. Therefore, ... if you want to present your findings as theory, I've got no problem. If you're telling me it's, "The Truth",... Jio, I think you're skating on rather thin ice.